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BBC 2 - Are You Finishing A Self-Build House?


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#61 ProDave

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 04:51 PM

I won't ask until I am ready to buy it. I'm on a tight budget to get the house wind and watertight and for the moment my gutters are screwed to the wood. It will be later on, when we have more money that things like that will get added. at the moment there are more essential things to spend our last few £ on.

#62 stones

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 07:11 PM

Dave, I'm fitting Rationel windows like you, but need deeper cills than they can supply so will be going direct to the company (in Cumbernauld) that they use to paint the cills they supply. They also happen to be fabricators and can fold aluminium into profiles for you, and critically, get them powder coated to any RAL (including the granite type finish Rationel supply). Prices seem very good as well (my cills will be just over half the price ADW wanted for their cills). I'll PM you the company details if you want.

#63 ProDave

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 07:13 PM

Yes please, though I won't be contacting them for a while.

#64 ProDave

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 12:40 PM

View Poststones, on 15 April 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Dave, I'm fitting Rationel windows like you, but need deeper cills than they can supply so will be going direct to the company (in Cumbernauld) that they use to paint the cills they supply.
I will be interested to hear how that works. I've just been fitting my cills this morning, and they are an extruded profile, not just bent sheet metal. In particular the bit that goes up into the slot in the bottom of the frame is a ribbed profile.

Edited by ProDave, 16 April 2016 - 01:29 PM.


#65 SteamyTea

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 12:55 PM

This is just like one of those house building shows on telly, it is all about the windows :D

#66 stones

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 01:40 PM

View PostProDave, on 16 April 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

I will be interested to hear how that works. I've just been fitting my cills this morning, and they are an extruded profile, not just bent sheet metal. In particular the bit that goes up into the slot in the bottom of the frame is a ribbed profile.

It's unfortunate that we can't use their normal cills but such is life. We may well increase rigidity of the cill by bonding a bit of marine ply on the underside. As you suggest my main concern is the falling out the slot in the bottom of the frame as we won't have the ribs. Talking this one through with ADW they advised that many of their approved installers go belt and braces and fix the cills in with screws as well rather than just relying on the ribs catching the frame. In our case the external 140mm sheet EWI will butt up against the underside of the cill so should be another fail safe.

I just at my local library where they used folded alu cills and have to say them seem rigid enough and well fixed . anchored (what state the walls are in is another matter!)

#67 ProDave

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 01:49 PM

My cills will be resting on the 100mm wood fibre board cladding (cutting them at a matching angle is another challege) sealed all round with compriband. there's no way they can possiby fall out of their slots. What EWI system are you using?

Edited by ProDave, 16 April 2016 - 01:49 PM.


#68 jsharris

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 01:50 PM

The extruded profile cills sound similar to those that came pre-fitted to our Munster windows. They are very rigid and securely fixed to the outer part of the window frame, with vertical ribs along the underside to stiffen them up. They seem to be the same extruded section as used for their door external cills, but in a different colour, so are strong enough to take being stood on or have loads wheeled over them. My only criticism is that the plastic end caps they supply don't clip in tightly to the extrusion, so I've had to go around fixing them all in place with clear silicone.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that you can get hold of the bare alloy cill extrusions from somewhere, to make stiff and strong custom cills. I doubt that the window manufacturers make their own alloy extrusions, they almost certainly buy them in from somewhere else I'd have thought.

#69 ProDave

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 01:55 PM

Rationell don't supply end caps for them, so I don't have that issue. but yes it would not surprise me to find this is a standard profile used by many companies and it probably is the same as yours.

#70 stones

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 01:59 PM

We are building in ICF, so the additional 140mm is an extra layer of polystyrene to keep the main ICF block nice and warm.

ADW, the Rationel supplier Dave and I are using, sources it's cills from a supplier in Cumbria (the name escapes me at the moment) however they only supply up to a certain size and won't make the larger size I'm looking for. If I can find someone to make an extruded cill rather than a folded cill, then all the better as I can still get them powder coating by the company I have already approached to match the finish on my alu cladding.

#71 jsharris

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 02:45 PM

If it's any help, the cills we have were specced as being 220mm deep, IIRC, That depth seemed to be measured as the width of the extrusion, and when fitted the extrusion rear face is flush with the rear face of the aluminium outer window frame (our windows have an aluminium outer frame, a foamed PVC centre frame and a timber inner frame). That means that someone must be able to supply 220mm extrusions, the challenge is finding out who. I've seem similar depth door cill extrusions, as it's more commonplace to need deeper cills on doors, I think. Maybe a hunt around for custom extrusion suppliers might prove fruitful. I know that the supplier of structural aluminium I've used a lot when building aircraft, MG Metals, have access to a fairly wide range of "architectural extrusions" by special order, as I've seen them at their warehouse when down their picking up alloy. I've not doubt that other non-ferrous metal merchants may be able to get stuff like this too. Getting it powder coated is easy, I've used two fairly local firms to powder coat steel tube airframes, and both offered a wide range of polyester or epoxy powder coat, along with the cheap and nasty nylon coating used on cheap steel goods.

#72 stones

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 03:53 PM

View Postjsharris, on 16 April 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

That means that someone must be able to supply 220mm extrusions, the challenge is finding out who.

I have been searching as an extruded cill would I think be preferable to a folded cill. I have 140mm of EWI on top of the 65mm outer thickness of the ICF block so need a fairly deep cill once overhang taken into account. I'll have to keep plugging away with different search terms until I find someone. I'll check out MG metals though.

Edited by stones, 16 April 2016 - 03:56 PM.


#73 ProDave

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 04:04 PM

Here's my cill profile, which is 120mm, the largest Rationel supply.

Attached File  cill.jpg   27.19K   6 downloads

It works for our build, but if 220mm profiles are available, you would think Rationel would be able to offer that?

Edited by ProDave, 16 April 2016 - 04:04 PM.


#74 jsharris

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 04:16 PM

These two photos don't show the extrusion that well, but it's much heavier than that Rationel one seems to be. It's a hollow cored box section extrusion, with a drip ridge projecting at the lower front and a series of ridges on the underside to stiffen up the lower surface, which is what makes me think it's a load-bearing door cill extrusion. There are also internal vertical webs that divide the hollow centre into (I think) three chambers, and again I think that these webs are to increase the load bearing capability.

I would quite happily stand on them, they are that robust.

Window 1.JPG

Window casement open.JPG

#75 bitpipe

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 04:22 PM

We undersized our basement cills and ordered new ones from Spectrum architectural They also do capping profile (that I needed for the parapets) but I went for coping instead (which fixes onto clips, rather than fixing through the profile itself.

#76 jsharris

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 04:25 PM

These people do up to 300mm extruded cills, it seems: http://www.superiori...luminium-cills/

Sadly no photos. I wish I'd taken photos of ours without the end caps, as that would give a better idea of the way they are extruded.

#77 stones

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 04:36 PM

View PostProDave, on 16 April 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

Here's my cill profile, which is 120mm, the largest Rationel supply.

Attachment cill.jpg

It works for our build, but if 220mm profiles are available, you would think Rationel would be able to offer that?

Sadly they won't work for us. I did of course ask ADW but as the cills are sourced independently of Rationel (quite why I can't fathom - for whatever reason Rationel don't supply the cills) they couldn't supply anything bigger, although from my conversation with them it is something they are looking at currently.

The cill looks fairly simple to replicate (aside from the 'barbs'), and as such I'm not too concerned if a folded cill is all I can source.

Edited by stones, 16 April 2016 - 04:39 PM.


#78 stones

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 04:45 PM

View Postbitpipe, on 16 April 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

We undersized our basement cills and ordered new ones from Spectrum architectural They also do capping profile (that I needed for the parapets) but I went for coping instead (which fixes onto clips, rather than fixing through the profile itself.

This is one of the companies I looked at until I found out the company my window supplier uses to paint the cills also fabricates. The profiles seem to be very straightforward folded rather than extruded cills as pictured in Dave's post. If I can get my hands on deeper extruded cills all the better. How does the alu coping look? This is something I've considered to cover our skews. Material cost wise about the same as the lead I plan to use, but my fear with alu coping is that it would look too clipped / industrial rather than the more traditional finish I'll get with lead.

View Postjsharris, on 16 April 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

These people do up to 300mm extruded cills, it seems: http://www.superiori...luminium-cills/

Thanks, I'll have a look at them as well.