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Ongoing Issues With Neighbour


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#21 notnickclegg

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 10:24 AM

View Postjsharris, on 07 July 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

... but I took the naive view that we needed good neighbours, as we plan on staying there for the rest of our days.

I don't think that view is naive at all.

Jack

#22 Calvinmiddle

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 01:54 PM

Hoping someone can help here, trying to finish the fence between my loving neighbour and my drive.

He is telling me that he wants it dropped to 0.9m for one 3m bay and to slope from 2m to 0.9m for another bay,

As documented before I'm not that interested in what he wants, just what I have to do to be right with the council.

Our planning permission has a confirmed condition that the fence between the new house and his will be 2m high, the drawings don't show the fence going all the way up to the driveway (new house behind existing house with driveway down the side between existing house and his)

But the planners in their summary have confirmed that there will be a 2m high fence along that boundary.

Now as far as I'm concerned the driveway is part of the build and the confirmed condition means I have planning permission for a 2m fence out to the highway - but I now most fences between house ramp down near the highway when they run at right angles to it, and I will in incorporate a slope down, but trying to figure out why the rules are.

I also know their are PD right which allow you to build only a 1m fencing adjacent to the highway - but what is meant by adjacent? Tried to find something to tell me it that refers only to the front running along the front of a house or somehow includes the side fences ie those running at right angle to the highway, and if so for what distance.

I'm wondering about the PD rights as worried council may try and say permission was only meant to be for part of the boundary, not all of it.

So what does the adjacent rule apply to fences down the side if a house running away from the highway?

Edited by Calvinmiddle, 06 October 2015 - 01:55 PM.


#23 ProDave

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:26 PM

The 1M height restriction applies to anything in front of the principle building line, so under PD rules the fence can only be 1M high in front of that.

Doesn't your PP state something about visibility splays? I am sure we have to maintain a specific visibility from a point 2.4 metres from the edge of the road and 1M high, so that precludes any fence over 1M within 2.4M of the road.

#24 notnickclegg

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:26 PM

I don't know what the general rule is for what you're permitted to build fence-wise, but planning permission is granted based on the drawings. I personally wouldn't be relying on having been granted permission to do more than is in the drawings, unless it's abundantly clear from the decision that permission is granted for more than that.

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#25 Calvinmiddle

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:24 PM

View PostProDave, on 06 October 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

The 1M height restriction applies to anything in front of the principle building line, so under PD rules the fence can only be 1M high in front of that.

Doesn't your PP state something about visibility splays? I am sure we have to maintain a specific visibility from a point 2.4 metres from the edge of the road and 1M high, so that precludes any fence over 1M within 2.4M of the road.

Do you have a link to where this is described as such? I have only seen things talking about fencing 2m from the highway.

Site is in it middle of town so nothing about visibility sprays in PP and also using existing opening.

#26 Alphonsox

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:38 PM

I was informed by our (English) planning department that any fence within 1m of the road needed to be 1m or less in height. Other than that 2m was the maximum. This seems to be backed up by web based searches for Engish councils but very different is Scotland.

Edited by Alphonsox, 06 October 2015 - 03:42 PM.


#27 Calvinmiddle

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:46 PM

I understand the 1m in height thing, but that it believe is for the fence at the front of a house, what I'm asking about is the fences that run down the sides.

They could be said to be within 1m of the highway, but the vast majority of the fence won't be. So does the first 2m of fence have to be one height and the rest can be another height?

Edited by Calvinmiddle, 06 October 2015 - 03:47 PM.


#28 Alphonsox

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:55 PM

My understanding is that the 1m rule is for any bit of fence within 1m of the road whether it is parallel or perpendicular to the road. Outside of this region 2m is the max. In your case this should mean that you can run a 2m fence between you and the neighbour dropping to 1m as it gets to 1m from the road. However I believe there are other constraints placed on land cleared for visibility. Typical visibility splays require 2.4m clear from the roadside so making the first panel 1m in height may suffice.

#29 ProDave

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:58 PM

Here's the Scottish guidance on permitted development http://www.scotland....38/00388268.pdf

Page 42 confirms a fence forward of the principle elevation can only be 1 metre under permitted development.

#30 Alphonsox

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 04:08 PM

Here's an equivalent from an English council showing the English 2m rule. (This version seems to suggest the fist 2m of a side boundary are treated as adjacent to the road.)

http://www.broxtowe...._gates_2007.pdf

For what its worth the actual legislation is here

http://www.legislati...0150596_en.pdf.

Edited by Alphonsox, 06 October 2015 - 04:20 PM.


#31 temp

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 04:21 PM

Hold on a moment folks. We are getting away from Calvins situation...

Fences adjacent to the highway can be any height you like _IF_ you have planning permission for it. The 1m rule just determines if you need Planning Permission (which might be refused) or if you can do it under Permitted Development.

However Calvin already has Planning Permission for a 2M fence so I don't see any problem with him building that. The issue is does the exact wording of the PP allow the fence to extend along the whole boundary. Can you post the exact wording? I think if it just refers to "the boundary" then there is no reason not to apply that to the whole boundary.

Edited by temp, 06 October 2015 - 04:30 PM.


#32 temp

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 04:28 PM

As an aside.. Some councils interpret "adjacent" to mean within 1m of the highway...

http://www.fenland.g...er.ashx?id=5307

Quote

The rules are more strict for walls, fences and gates which are “adjacent to a highway”, which the Council interprets for this purpose as meaning within 1 metre (3ft 3ins) of a highway. This includes any road used by vehicular traffic and any footway alongside such a road.

So in many cases only the front and first 1m of the side fence needs to be below 1m height to come under Permitted Development. But as I said above... if you want it taller or all the way to the highway you just have to apply for planning permission.

Edited by temp, 06 October 2015 - 04:31 PM.


#33 Calvinmiddle

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:28 PM

Putting kids to bed - will post exact wording later when they are alseep

#34 Calvinmiddle

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 07:29 PM

So the plans submitted show the site as thus:


Site Plan.JPG

The wording of the condition of the fence height was:

Attached File  Fence Condition.jpg   58.17K   27 downloads

what I submitted was:

Condition 4


Boundary treatments


Please refer to Appendix 2


The rear boundary fence to XXXX will be retained.


The existing fence to the public footpath will be moved to the edge of Right of Way as located by RICS Neighbour Disputes Service, the boundary on the far side of the public footpath will be delineated by the edge of the public footpath that will be relocated by COUNCILS Rights of Way team.


A new wooden fence with a height of 1.8m will be constructed between the existing house and the new dwelling


A new wooden fence with a minimum height of 2.0m will be constructed between the new dwelling and #4.


The sketch in appendix 2 was:


Attached File  Fence Condition Sketch.jpg   45.47K   34 downloads


And the planners discharge of conditions says:


Attached File  Discharge of conditions.jpg   57.28K   24 downloads



So not sure if these means that I have permission to fence the boundary shown in the site plan to 2.0m all the way to the highway or just what I shown in the sketch - partly my fault I know as the sketch should have shown the whole plot.


The actual fence starts about 1m away from the boundary at the front of the house (due to old gate post footings) the footpath is 5m wide to carriageway (may not be relevant as footpath counts as part of highway) my fence posts are spaced at 3m as I'm building a feather board fence.


What I want to do if have the first have of the bay at 1m then ramp the second half up to 2m and the rest of the fence at 2m, that would give 2.5m from the footpath of either no fence or fence 1m high.


But if they try and say I can't do this under permitted development I need to know if they have messed up and essentially given me permission to build a 2m high fence right up to the highway, and as what I'm proposing to do is less than what they have given me permission to do they should be thankful.


Edited by Calvinmiddle, 06 October 2015 - 07:38 PM.


#35 temp

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:12 PM

Ok so basically what you got discharged (the sketch) wasn't clear and could be interpreted as showing the fence stopping short of the High Street.

Quote

What I want to do if have the first have of the bay at 1m then ramp the second half up to 2m and the rest of the fence at 2m, that would give 2.5m from the footpath of either no fence or fence 1m high.

I think that would be perfectly reasonable. Even if the planners decide it's not covered by the drawing you submitted to discharge the condition I think it would come under permitted development.




#36 temp

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:27 PM

Google found this page of Q&A some of which discuss what is meant by adjacent to the highway..

http://www.planningr...dcp-section-434

One option would be to write to the planners stating that although your PP requires a fence >1.8m along that boundary you would like to slope it down to 1m for the first bay. Ask if that's ok :-)



#37 joe90

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:05 PM

+1 for writing to the planners, get it in writing, no ambiguity!

#38 Triassic

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 05:28 PM

If you get it in writing, it may help get the neighbour off your back with his alternative views on the height of the fence. -- Blame the planners!!

#39 Calvinmiddle

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:04 PM

Had the meeting with the enforcement officer today - acted dumb and innocently asked what he was out to enforce as the fence hasn't been built yet and it's just a row of posts.

His argument was that my condition plan shows the fence stopping at the old house and not running all the way to the highway, my counter argument was that the condition clearly states the fence has to be at least 1.8m along the boundary with the neighbour and that the site plans clearly show the boundary running up to the highway.

We did some more verbal fencing (excuse the pun) and it ended up with my stating my view as thus;

"My planning is conditional on a boundary fence between me and the neighbour of at least 1.8m and a height of 2.0m was agreed with the planners. My concern is that if I don't build this fence as agreed that he (as the Enforcement Officer) could take enforcement against me to comply to the condition."

I did suggest that he perhaps waits until the fence is built before he decides, what if any, action to take. We will build the fence as described as previously and if that isn't suitable to the council then they are going to have to try and argue that the 2.0m fence only applies to the part of the boundary shown on my condition plan, as opposed to what they have stated, and then that the fence I've built doesn't come under permitted development rights - which may be hard due to the ambiguity in what does "adjacent to the highway" mean and the fact from a safety and visibility spray point of view the footpath is 5m wide, we live in 20mph zone, and are about 30m from a 4 way intersection with traffic lights.

I'm hoping that they will accept whats there and say no more....so I get what I want, council is happy and neighbour can go jump until it gets through his arrogant thick head that I don't have to do what he says just because he thinks he is very important!!! ARRGHH

Edited by joiner, 08 October 2015 - 01:47 PM.


#40 joe90

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 03:55 PM

Good on you.