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ebuild is sad to announce its closure - it has become too time and resource intensive to develop, manage and maintain.

However, ebuild will remain on-line in archive mode (ie no posting facilties) for several weeks so that users can use it as an information resource.

NFC Deadbolt


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#1 kev106

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 11:10 PM

Been waiting on these! What are the implications for home insurance though?

Commercial link removed.

Kev, please explain the product and go from there, no commercial links in early posts please mate !!
Regards, mods.

Edited by Nickfromwales, 05 January 2015 - 11:16 PM.


#2 temp

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 08:58 AM

I had to google wha an NFC Deadbolt was. How secure are they? ..

https://intrepidusgr...-with-androids/

Quote

Unlocking NFC deadbolts with Androids

... I scanned the sample card with my Galaxy Nexus and realized it was a Mifare Classic card… with no protected sectors or data on it (not that it would have mattered too much since the Mifare Classic encryption can be fairly easily broken at this point)....

...Unfortunately, we also noticed there’s a reset button hidden on the outside of the lock, so bring a paper clip and reset it after four attempts to avoid triggering the brute-force alarm and time-out....

...we were able to purchase a knock-off “Mifare Classic” card from a contact in China which allows us to set the UID on a physical card using a non-standard command. At EUSecWest 2012, Max and I demonstrated using a Nexus S to read the UID off someone’s access card, then program onto this KIRF card in order to unlock....

...So if you use one of these locks, you might want to keep your card in a shield when it’s not needed...



#3 kev106

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 01:16 PM

Apologies, I didn't realise I couldn't post a link to an information website.
The lock claims to be more secure by eliminating a barrel which can be picked. It uses near field technology. Found in New iPhones and higher end Android devices.

#4 TerryE

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 01:47 PM

Kev, the reason for the rule is that we occasionally get new joiners touting some product and it is usually pretty clear that they are just doing product placement. In general this is a site for self-builders so it's all about a community creating and sharing knowledge. Avoid doing hard recommendations until you've got some karma here :-) Another way is to include a google search term (e.g. "NFC deadbolt") which will bring up a result set which includes the sort of link that you want to discuss.

To quote WP: "Near field communication (NFC) is a set of ideas and technologies that enable smartphones and other devices to establish radio communication with each other by touching them together or bringing them into proximity, typically a distance of 10 cm (3.9 in) or less. Each full NFC device can work in 3 modes: NFC target (acting like a credential), NFC initiator (as a reader) and NFC peer to peer." Here you can use an NFC keyfob or phone app to act as a near-field key for a physical deadbolt lock.

I've got remote controlled gates on my car access to my house. I think that they are brilliant because we have a separate pedestrian pathway and front door on the N side of out house, and a large garden at the S side (at the bottom of this is where we are going to build our new house). Before we had the electric gates we used to get people wandering into our private garden. The overall security on these is crap and hackable but reasonably near field (the fob range is ~30m).

In principle, I think that an NFC access to the house itself (as opposed to a private garden) could work, but there are all sorts of security wrinkles that would need to be worked through, especially if as you say: the insurers could treat these as voiding your insurance; this would be a no-no for me.

Edited by TerryE, 06 January 2015 - 01:54 PM.


#5 Nickfromwales

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 02:34 PM

View Postkev106, on 06 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Apologies, I didn't realise I couldn't post a link to an information website.
Apologies if a little over zealous but we get frequent fly tippers who drop a product link and strangely disappear ;)
As you appear genuine please feel free to add the link again ( oh, and welcome to the forum :wacko: :) ).
Regards, Nick.

#6 kev106

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 05:37 PM

I'm hoping to be a self builder very soon, just as soon as I get this site signed an deeds in my hand. This is the lock, it's probably the best version I've come across:
http://www.cnet.com/...g-nfc-deadbolt/


#7 temp

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 06:45 PM

As I recall insurance companies give a discount if your locks meet BS 3621. I doubt that insurance companies have a policy on NFC locks yet.

#8 Nickfromwales

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 07:41 PM

This is what would be in my locks...
http://www.mul-t-lock.co.uk
;)
Regards, Nick.

#9 notnickclegg

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 11:11 PM

Do check your insurance.

When we moved houses (to the one we just demolished), we didn't check the fine print on our insurance. Turns out we weren't technically insured, because we didn't have the right British Standard (BS 3621) deadlock fitted. We found this out when we checked the policy after a couple of lowlifes kicked the door off its hinges and stole various bits and pieces. Amazingly, our insurer paid up despite the police report mentioning that we only had a Yale-type lock, but wrote us a letter saying that we would not be covered for future burglaries unless our lock was compliant with BS 3621.

In our current rental, we have a glazed PVC front door. Although it has multi-point locking, the particular locking mechanism apparently makes our insurance subject to a further £500 excess - and that's irrespective of whether the front door is the point of access for any burglary.

So in short, check what your policy says, especially if you don't have (and use) a suitable deadlock.

You won't find me adding MFC or remotely operable locking to my house. It's become clear over the years that you simply can't trust manufacturers of anything involving encryption to do things robustly.

Jack

#10 Nickfromwales

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 11:30 PM

View Postnotnickclegg, on 06 January 2015 - 11:11 PM, said:

You won't find me adding MFC or remotely operable locking to my house. It's become clear over the years that you simply can't trust manufacturers of anything involving encryption to do things robustly.

Jack
Eve Jack.
Let's face it, the burglars will be watching YouTube videos on how to unlock your house if these things become commonplace :D
Regards, Nick.

#11 jsharris

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 08:19 AM

View PostNickfromwales, on 06 January 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

Eve Jack.
Let's face it, the burglars will be watching YouTube videos on how to unlock your house if these things become commonplace :D
Regards, Nick.

Just as every Tom, Dick and Harry knows how vulnerable the vast majority of Eurolocks are. The first time I watched some of the videos on how dead easy it was to snap off a Eurolock and gain entry faster than if you'd used the key I was a bit gobsmacked. I replaced ours with ones that are supposedly resistant to this type of attack (so-called "anti-snap" units), but I remain suspicious, as I know for a fact that they may well still be vulnerable to "bumping", even if they are supposedly to the highest standard available. The fix against "bumping" when you're actually in the house is to have a key lock inside and leave the key in, fully turned, as even if the outer lock is "bumped" the barrel will remain locked. The risk with this is that the letter box may provide access to the internal key and the lock can still be "bumped" when you're out of the house.................

I'm astounded that we can have been so stupid as to adopt locks as vulnerable as Eurolocks, to be honest. Our old house had Chubb mortice locks that were said to be about as secure as you can get, despite being years old.

Watch this, then go and look at your locks: https://www.youtube....h?v=TCufUpr_QRY

Edited by jsharris, 07 January 2015 - 08:32 AM.


#12 joiner

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 12:11 PM

The Eurolock thing is the reason I retained the old Chubb mortice locks, plus a deadlock on every external door, because both are half-glazed.

Had to put with some moans about having to carry around "big" keys when the Eurolocks offered the hand-bag-friendly Yale-type, but the Chubb keys tend to get their edges smoothed-off in time.

(And when you're both going out together, why do women insist that the bloke has the keys in his pocket when they've got a bloody big handbag on their arm? Revenge?)

Edited by joiner, 07 January 2015 - 12:11 PM.


#13 JanetE

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 04:15 PM

Joiner, ever heard of manbags??? Some really nice ones on EBay :rolleyes:

#14 joiner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 10:44 AM

:) I've got one and had it, and used it, for about 15 years. Cost me £10 from a leather shop in Worcester and it's getting a bit faded around the edges now but can't find a replacement. The only ones I've found are nowhere near the capacity of this one, cost in excess of £50 and all seem to open the "wrong way".

This is what I've usually got in mine, the load consisting of personal cellphone, official council cellphone, 7" tablet (holding "current" documents I might need to refer to during a call on the 'official' phone), wallet, car keys (including main house key).

Sorry to disappoint. ;)

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#15 joiner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 10:51 AM

I was so shocked to see how easy it was to get past the Eurolocks that I've passed the link to that video on to our Bronze Level Task group, which oversees matters of community safety, because I suspect a lot of social housing will have these things fitted in the upvc doors that went in during the extensive 'modernisations' of a few years ago.

As Nick has pointed out, the danger of advertising this knowledge too far is that the wrong people will get hold of it - apart from the scrotes who've already got their advanced qualification in screwing up other people's lives during a spell in a YOI - and so that limits the extent to which notices of caution can be circulated.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't! :unsure:

#16 TerryE

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:48 PM

View Postjoiner, on 08 January 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

As Nick has pointed out, the danger of advertising this knowledge too far is that the wrong people will get hold of it...
Dave, I take a rather sanguine view of this philosophy -- that it is somehow wrong to discuss some facts because the wrong people might get a hold of them -- usually because the assumptions behind this logic are flawed. You have to balance the conflicting goals of informing people who should understand a vulnerability, again informing those who want to exploit it.

In this case, we have to balance the issue of informing householders clearly so they have the opportunity to remedy this genuine vulnerability against advertising "how-to" techniques to would-be criminals. It took me about a minute to find a DIY guide on Youtube on how to remove a Eurolock when you've lost a key. You don't need much thought to see how to flip this into a break-in technique. Anyway most of the thieves who do this will be shown the trick by a mate who is already proficient in the technique.

#17 joiner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:37 PM

Still a few tyros out there, though, who make up the opportunistic element of the Anti Social Order.

My point concerned vulnerable people who don't have the resources to take the necessary steps to protect themselves who would then start to worry themselves sick. When I wrote what I did above it was those people I had in mind. It was also why I passed the information on to Bronze Level Tasking with the suggestion they follow up with discussions with the various housing associations within the county, which will see the information disseminated to those agencies best able to address the problem. That is apparently now in hand. :)

#18 DamonHD

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 02:35 PM

Good, Joiner.

Still agree with TerryE: except in specific cases where immediate widespread mayhem may otherwise break out (and a couple of recent Internet-related vulnerabilites have been there) it is better to let people know that there is a problem and how to resolve it in a reasonable time-frame while not making it an easy HOW-TO guide for the evil-but-dim ("script-kiddies" in Internet terms).

Rgds

Damon

#19 jsharris

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 02:37 PM

Sorry to use a cat analogy................... :)

The problem with cats is that once you have let them out of a bag they are the very devil to get back in.

The farcical design flaw of the weak point in the centre of a Eurolock is something that needed to be spread far and wide, so that people could take action to partially rectify it. There are no really secure Eurolocks, as they can all be defeated, but some do take longer to defeat than others, and the vast majority of those in use (and there are probably millions of the unsafe ones in the UK alone) can be defeated in seconds by someone with no skills but one of the many tools available from websites like this: http://www.walkerloc...s/snapper-bars.

I've been looking long and hard at how to upgrade the Eurolock barrels in our new house. They are "Secured by Design" so better than most, but yesterday I removed a barrel just to see how secure it really is. It is pretty good, but not as good as the best, so all the barrels are being changed (which also gives me the opportunity to have a common key for all the doors).

Edited by jsharris, 08 January 2015 - 02:38 PM.


#20 wmacleod

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 03:56 PM

Security is an interesting one. Some modern methods of construction are incredibly insecure as many industrial building owners have found out. Outer rainscreen, ventilation gap, membrane, possibly board material, insulation, plasterboard. Get through the whole lot with nothing other than a stanley knife (stone cladding sorted by shattering with end of knife). If there are significant board materials such as timber cladding or OSB then you may need a battery reciprocating saw for a minute. Cost a lot more to fix than replacing a lock barrel.

Definitely one that needs looking at the bigger picture in terms of the whole house and garden. Good cameras, PIR lights, alarm boxes on the wall all hopefully going to help encourage folk to look for a different target. An old banger of a car left out on the drive of course as well to let them know no cash likely left lying around. Keep the expensive motor in the garage!