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Interior Door Frames - Advice Please


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#1 jsharris

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:33 PM

It seems I've made a small @!##-up, solely as a consequence of knowing nothing about interior joinery and its relationship with plastering.

All our internal walls are of 89mm x 38mm stud work, and will be covered with 12.5mm plasterboard both sides, then skimmed with plaster. I have the plasterers coming in a week on Monday to start screwing the plasterboard up and skimming it. I've had a carpenter and a joiner working together on the exterior cladding, and I've asked the joiner to do the internal work, as his work's damned good.

Here comes the snag. When I asked him about doing the internal work, he casually mentioned that he'd need to fit the door linings before the plasterers do there thing, so they have an edge to skim to. He also said that he can't start work on our internal joinery until the end of February.

This leaves us with a dilemma. I can fit temporary battens to all the door openings, spaced to allow 12.5mm plasterboard plus a 3mm plaster skim, to give something for the plasterers to work to, then remove them and hope that I've got the right overall width for the linings, and that any defects will get covered by the architrave.

Alternatively, I can have a go at fitting the door linings myself next week, and then just get the joiner to fit the doors etc.

I should add that the door linings and doors will be white oak, with rectangular white oak architrave, without mitred top joints (I want the horizontal top architrave to slightly overhang the verticals, a bit like a truncated Greek letter Pi).

Any advice?

#2 brickie

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:54 PM

Just a thought-stop beads? Will be covered by the architrave anyway. You could cut temporary profiles to the width of the liners & fit the beads flush to these perhaps?

#3 ProDave

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:01 PM

Howdens standard door liners are 115mm thick so almost a perfect match for your overall thickness (though it will be a very thin skim of plaster.

Buy some. Mask the edges with masking tape (to preserve a nice finish) and tack them in place with some long panel pins, not driven fully home.

That will give the plasterer an edge to work to, and only being tacked in place they can later be removed and re fixed by the joiner as they will very likely need packing to get them plumb and the correct spacing.

I guess it all depends on how much larger the openings in the structure are, compared to the size of door liner to be fitted (we had a 10-15mm gap all round to pack when fitting the liners)

Edited by ProDave, 03 January 2014 - 08:03 PM.


#4 Nickfromwales

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

Stop beads definitely.
They'll give a perfectly uniform depth, and a perfect straight edge, both vertical and horizontally. Fit the plasterboard and then carry out the following :-
Make up one lining on the floor, brace it so its square and true ( fit some small battens diagonally, and another at the foot widthways ) to keep it that way and then offer it up to each opening. Use a peice of batten to then 'scribe' a pencil line onto the plasterboard. That line can then be followed with the beads.
Usually there'll be some packers either side of the lining, it shouldn't really be fitted direct to the stud work unless its absolutely co ck on, so your pencil line should be equidistant of the opening in the stud ( doorway ).
Regards, nick.

Edited by Nickfromwales, 03 January 2014 - 08:11 PM.


#5 jsharris

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:25 PM

Thanks folks. The openings are all *exactly* 900mm wide by 2100mm high (one benefit of a factory made frame, I guess). 115mm seems a bit on the thin side, I was working on a 3mm skim, so an overall width of 120mm.

Stop beads sound like a good plan, as I can tack them all up next week and then let the joiner do his thing when making up the liners and frames.

I've just found that I can buy 119 x 20 white oak PAR boards locally at a reasonable price, though, so am tempted to pin these directly to the stud openings. As these are spot on square and accurate (as, BTW, are all the room sizes, to within a mm) this would leave an 860 x 2080 opening for the door (less maybe 15mm for the floor covering and maybe another 8mm for the ventilation gap under each door). This means I could just buy a lot of PAR oak boards and fit them to the openings, leaving the joiner to just fit the doors etc (assuming I've fitted everything dead square).

Decisions, decisions................

The stop bead seems the easy answer, as it removes any need for accuracy on my part, and any discrepancies will be covered by the architrave, but it adds to the joiner's labour bill. Still, that may be a price worth paying for a better overall result (working with wood is not one of my strengths!).

Edited by jsharris, 03 January 2014 - 08:25 PM.


#6 Nickfromwales

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 09:20 PM

Step away from the plane :-)
Surely you'll want the screws sunk and plugged with the same material, and the fixings need to be placed to suit the hinge arrangement too, 2 hinge or 3 hinge etc.
if the stud works as good as you say, the chippys bill will be reduced as he'll be able to fly those linings in with his eyes shut so the labour will be less. :-)
If your sat on your hands then maybe its tempting, but if there's plenty else to do then I'd crack on elsewhere. Having the fixings sunk and plugged properly will be a nice finish to a nice material.

#7 jsharris

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 09:36 PM

I think you're right, guys, I'll do it with stop bead. That way I can quickly get it all ready for the plasterers and I don't risk buggering up the oak linings.

15mm stop beads either side of the 89mm stud wall gives me 119mm overall, which is pretty much spot on for 12.5mm plasterboard plus 2.5mm plaster skim, which should be OK.

Thanks for the advice, folks.

Jeremy

#8 Nickfromwales

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 09:46 PM

It'll be looking dangerously like a house soon. :-)

#9 brickie

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:00 AM

I'm sure you will anyway but have a quick chat with the plasterer before diving into anything. He'll almost definitely have had to do this before & may well have a simple,ingenious solution.
As trades we're all having to get used to doing things out of sync from time to time,mainly due to the incompetence of developers & their under experienced staff.
The first job in London where I took on a Foreman type role was a concrete frame structure with brick cladding,broken up at every floor by a shelf angle to allow for a compressive soft joint. One & a half floors up I was called into the site office & instructed by the Contracts Mansger that he wished to have the building water tight ahead of programme so I was to stop where we were & move up to the top floor & start building off the shelf angle!
(It didn't occur to me in my astonishment to point out that rain generally doesn't fall vertically in a straight line!)
Ps I'm not comparing you to these fools JSH,just trying to say that your spread will undoubtedly have had to deal with worse situations & had to come up with a solution.

#10 oz07

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 02:40 PM

Late comer here.

As a joiner, I hate fitting doors where someone else has fitted the frames. They never end up checking the plumb or square because it wont be them fitting the door.

You sound pretty methodical J so if you did fit the linings I'd perhaps make an exception.

#11 jsharris

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 06:41 PM

An update and another question (or really just confirmation or otherwise that I'm going in the right direction).

I fitted 15mm stop beads on every doorway and the plasterers have done a really good job, so we have nice flat surfaces right up to where the door frames will fit. Before fitting the stop bead I packed the top of the frame door opening down with another bit of stud timber, glued and screwed to blocks and the top stud in each opening, as 2100 was too high. We now have 2035mm high x 900mm wide door openings, with a width of just a fraction over 119mm. I've checked and every opening is dead square, with the uprights spot on vertical.

I'm getting the joiner to fit the frames and doors and reckon that if I use a 27mm thick frame kit the clearances will be 4mm either side of an 838mm wide door. Does this sound about right?

Similarly, with the vertical clearance, with a 27mm thick frame and a 1981mm high door, with a 4mm clearance at the top I'm left with a gap of 23mm at the bottom. Our finished floor thickness will vary between 15mm and 18mm, depending on the flooring type, so, ignoring the height that a threshold strip might add, that leaves ventilation gaps of between 5 and 8mm, which seems OK.

I suspect that it's best to fit the doors after we've laid the flooring (it's all solid flooring, either bamboo or travertine stone), so that the joiner can work with the actual finished aperture. Does this make sense?

#12 joiner

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 02:34 PM

Yes. ;)

#13 notnickclegg

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:04 PM

View Postjsharris, on 07 February 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

... I've checked and every opening is dead square, with the uprights spot on vertical.

Another indicator of good work from MBC?

Jack

#14 oz07

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:58 PM

Might be easier to do the linings after the floor if not carpeted? - seeing as you've gone to the trouble of a stop bead for plasterers.

#15 jsharris

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:11 PM

Thanks folks, it's nice to know I'm on the right track. I'm trying to schedule getting the flooring laid before the joiner comes in to hang the doors, so the linings will (I hope) go in after the floors are down (should make life easier for both the flooring guy and the joiner, I hope).


View Postnotnickclegg, on 08 February 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Another indicator of good work from MBC?

Jack

I can't fault the accuracy of the build at all. The plasterers said that boarding out was dead easy because every room was dead square, too, something they'd not seen before. When I measured up the finished plastered kitchen dimensions (to make sure I had the right dimensions to order the kitchen) I found that the as-built room dimensions were 1mm bigger than the as-drawn dimensions! I was so gob-smacked by this accuracy that I went back and double checked with a different tape just to be sure.

#16 RobMcKeown

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:36 PM

Has to be stop beads, for sure

#17 jsharris

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:08 PM

welcome, and thanks, but we finished the plastering nearly three weeks ago now..............

Edited by jsharris, 17 February 2014 - 09:08 PM.


#18 TerryE

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 02:07 PM

OK, Jeremy Jan and I just had a discussion about the best order to approach this same issue in our house, so I decided to consult the great knowledge-base and found this and a couple of other threads.

I am reasonably good at woodwork and also a bit anal about accurate dimensions, squareness, finish, etc. I am also not satisfied with the finish of my builder's preferred joiner and so have decided that I should fit all of the door furniture and frames, skirting, architraves, etc. myself, as this is one of the jobs where it makes sense for us to do, and which will save a bit of labour costs.

Before reading these threads, my vote was for fitting the frames before plastering, and Jan's was for fitting the plasterboard first (mainly because she was worried about plaster damage to the finish woodwork), but after reviewing these threads what we are currently planning is:
  • All of internal doors will use the1981×838mm standard size.
  • I will make up 2 or 3 temporary formwork frames to act as a door sleeve during boarding up
  • I will then fit stop beads before plastering
  • Internal frames will be plaster-surface to plaster-surface (~130mm for the racked internal walls and 120mm for the non-racked ones), and these will be fitted post plastering.
  • I will fit the doors themselves quite late in second fix after most of the dirty are are out of the way.
  • Ditto architraves. (We've given up on using shadow reveals around the door frames, though this could now be an option given the use of stop beads. Need to think about this.)
Anyway this is my current plan which I will review with my plastering gaffer. My only Q to you / Dave / Nick etc. would you now suggest any variation given the benefit of 20-20 hindsight?

Edited by TerryE, 23 April 2016 - 02:52 PM.


#19 jsharris

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 02:18 PM

If I were doing it again then I'd not have bothered with the stop beads. What I should have done was either lightly fit sacrificial linings, dead square and in the exact place the real oak linings were going to fit, or fit the proper oak linings and protect them with that shiny, low tack, protecting tape.

What happened in practice with my approach of fitting the stop beads was that when the linings were fitted the inevitable bit of banging and wedging needed to get them spot on caused the plaster to crack away from the plastic stop bead. None of the cracking extended behind where the architrave would go, but it meant doing a bit of making good. Another problem was that, being plastic, the stop bead tended to ripple slightly, so the plaster wasn't dead flat where the architrave sits. Nothing major, but a pain to fix cleanly when you're fitting oiled oak architrave and you don't want to mark it at all.

I think that I'd have risked fitting the oak frames first and protecting them with tape, then have the plasterers work up to them if I were doing is again. That way I'd have had little work to do before bonding the architraves in place and very little making good afterwards.

Edited by jsharris, 23 April 2016 - 02:19 PM.


#20 Garry

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 04:16 PM

View Postjsharris, on 03 January 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Thanks folks. The openings are all *exactly* 900mm wide by 2100mm high (one benefit of a factory made frame, I guess). 115mm seems a bit on the thin side, I was working on a 3mm skim, so an overall width of 120mm.

Stop beads sound like a good plan, as I can tack them all up next week and then let the joiner do his thing when making up the liners and frames.

I've just found that I can buy 119 x 20 white oak PAR boards locally at a reasonable price, though, so am tempted to pin these directly to the stud openings. As these are spot on square and accurate (as, BTW, are all the room sizes, to within a mm) this would leave an 860 x 2080 opening for the door (less maybe 15mm for the floor covering and maybe another 8mm for the ventilation gap under each door). This means I could just buy a lot of PAR oak boards and fit them to the openings, leaving the joiner to just fit the doors etc (assuming I've fitted everything dead square).

Decisions, decisions................ If the walls are being dabbed or plasterboard screwed to the studs you don't need anything to finish the skim to However if you are applying a wet plaster backing you are best with a ply lining the width of the casings
Nearly all the commercial buildings we do, fit the casing with the second fix joinery, as most tend to be oak or similar
Gary

The stop bead seems the easy answer, as it removes any need for accuracy on my part, and any discrepancies will be covered by the architrave, but it adds to the joiner's labour bill. Still, that may be a price worth paying for a better overall result (working with wood is not one of my strengths!).