Jump to content


ebuild is sad to announce its closure - it has become too time and resource intensive to develop, manage and maintain.

However, ebuild will remain on-line in archive mode (ie no posting facilties) for several weeks so that users can use it as an information resource.

Smug Bas'tard!


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 joiner

joiner

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 10,718 posts
  • LocationWest Midlands

Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:45 PM

I'm in a solid walled building built in 1848. It's 5.4C outside and 20.4C inside.

I'm sitting here at my desk in my winter post-shower garb of chavvy trainer bottoms, t-shirt, hoodie and slippers (not a pretty sight according to my daughter).

This time last year, with the temps more or less the same, I'd have been sitting here fully dressed in a sweater with an electric fire under the desk dreading going for a shower and returning here after getting fully dressed again.

And all I've done is fitted replacement double-glazed (sash) windows and lined the external walls with Gyproc thermaboard.

With such simple devices is a smug bas'tard made. :rolleyes:

#2 jsharris

jsharris

    Please ignore all posts by me, some are erroneous

  • Member Blogger
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11,461 posts
  • LocationWiltshire/Dorset border

Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:06 PM

Just goes to show how even fairly modest improvements can make a really significant difference.

I know I keep harping on about how poor UK housing stock is in terms of energy efficiency, but this report makes interesting reading, and confirms it with some rather stark statistics: http://www.ukace.org...n-of-Europe.pdf

Edited by jsharris, 12 December 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#3 joiner

joiner

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 10,718 posts
  • LocationWest Midlands

Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:09 PM

:) Ah, you picked up on it as well during your fleeting visit!

Does make grim reading.

But what can you do when the policy emphasis is on increasing generation rather than reducing the need for it? :(

#4 jsharris

jsharris

    Please ignore all posts by me, some are erroneous

  • Member Blogger
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11,461 posts
  • LocationWiltshire/Dorset border

Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:15 PM

It's crazy, isn't it?

Most of our poor housing stock can be improved fairly easily, yet we seem unable to come up with schemes that bring about genuine widespread improvement, only ones that line the pockets of those cashing in on the government subsidies.

One major problem seem to be a lack of awareness about energy saving measures and how they could help reduce energy bills. Just some simple and effective draught proofing would make a useful difference in a lot of older homes, where ventilation heat loss is high.

#5 ProDave

ProDave

    Self build in the Highlands

  • Moderators
  • 5,960 posts
  • LocationScottish Highlands

Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:48 PM

The best we seem to be able to offer is throw stacks of loft insulation in.

From what I have seen, most of that is "fitted" without much attention to detail, probably by some poor, low paid, poorly trained operative.

And time after time after time, I'm finding electrical wiring encased in insulation between the old and the new loft insulation. It really is a wonder there are not more electrical problems as a result of this. (electrical wiring in cased in insulation should be uprated to larger cable)

And the poor home owner is "out of the loop". To get any "help" from any form of grant, you have to go through the green deal thing, where someone else says what they will do to your house and how, with the poor home owner getting no choice in the matter, Unless of course they forget the green deal stuff and just fund whatever improvements they want themselves.

#6 strat44

strat44

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 78 posts
  • LocationStirlingshire

Posted 16 March 2015 - 01:56 PM

Yes we're just hitting that just now, correct me if I'm wrong..................

There is no insulation in our loft so we called around and British gas will come and fit it all for free 300mm I believe. But thats about it, we can't get the grant toward buying better quality or for fitting kingspan in loft conversion etc.

The guy that did the survey was round the house in 2 mins and since we have had endless call to change our power provider, heating system etc etc.

We actually want to change the boiler but even including the BG grant or scrappage deal for the boiler it is more expensive than getting a plumber / HE to fit a new better boiler and better than the ones BG offer!

#7 SteamyTea

SteamyTea

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,322 posts
  • LocationCornwall

Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:52 PM

As someone that thinks subsidies are a bad move, I think that having two schemes running, a government subsidised one and self funding is possibly not a bad thing.
If it becomes cheaper to self fund and not use a governmnet scheme, then that sends a message to the government that sudsidies are no longer needed. I think PV is now there.

Ther reason that we have focused on generation is partly to do with the lack of investment and the time it take to get new generation capacity. In the past 4 years the UK has installed about 4 GW of PV, the 2GW of new nuclear has been discussed for the last 10 years, and is probably 20 years away from actually generating. In that thime the 4 GW of PV will have generated about 7 x 104 GWh. If we do manage to get new nuclear going in 10 years time, then that will have generate about 1.75 x 105 GWh after twn years. About 2.5 times as much as the PV, but at a much higher public cost, and that is assuming no more PV, and nuclear wil only take 10 years to build (the last one, Sizewell took 27 years).
Both technologies contribute to our 2020 targets (I think we are just about there with RE and the CO2 is not far behind, but it is just one arbitary, political target).

As for the general public not understanding that simple things help, that is an education and earnings matter, not a technical one.
If the average dual fuel bill is about £1000 to £1300 a year, and just for a laugh the government decided that they would subsides half of it (about £1.725 billion a year, small beer to the government), then within a month our usage would have gone up and few people would use the saving to reduce usage.
Better off keeping the price higher and educating people.

Edited by SteamyTea, 16 March 2015 - 02:56 PM.


#8 Nickfromwales

Nickfromwales

    Short cuts take three times longer.....Fact

  • Moderators
  • 8,182 posts
  • LocationSouth Wales

Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:58 PM

BG = legal thieves.


#9 DamonHD

DamonHD

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,046 posts
  • LocationLondon, UK

Posted 16 March 2015 - 03:01 PM

We (OpenTRV) reckon that £300/y/household (more than £5bn/y for the UK) of domestic space heating is completely wasted.

Insulation and/or some improved heating controls at ~£100/house (hint hint!) could fix much of it.

Rgds

Damob

#10 SteamyTea

SteamyTea

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,322 posts
  • LocationCornwall

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:11 PM

Yes, It is relatively easy to save 25 to 30%.
Gets harder after that, Think I am now down to about 45% of what I first used when I moved here.

If there is 30 million homes, and 300 quid a home, isn't that £9bn. Again not a huge amount of money in a £2tr GDP economy. Half a percent.

#11 DamonHD

DamonHD

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,046 posts
  • LocationLondon, UK

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:28 PM

26.5M homes in UK of which 20M+ on gas grid. Typical space heating bill ~£600/home/year, about 50% wasted. Not all of that is gas (est £5bn/y gas wasted in homes on space heat).

Don't make me put on my investment pitch voice. B^>

Rgds

Damon

Edited by DamonHD, 16 March 2015 - 04:28 PM.


#12 SteamyTea

SteamyTea

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,322 posts
  • LocationCornwall

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:29 PM

Yes, forgot that not everyone has gas, funny that, as I don't.

#13 joiner

joiner

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 10,718 posts
  • LocationWest Midlands

Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:16 PM

Pity radon isn't flammable, Cornwall would be self-sufficient.

#14 SteamyTea

SteamyTea

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,322 posts
  • LocationCornwall

Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:13 PM

Not sure how acceptable it would be to make the 600,000 residence of Cornwall self sufficient in energy.
First thing to do would be to virtually stop combustion. That would mean electric transport, heat pumps instead of gas/coal/biomass.
This would mean electrification of just about everything.
If an average UK resident uses 40 MWh of primary energy a year, this could, with exisiting technology, possibly be cut in half.
So that would mean generating and distributing 12 TWh/year in Cornwall.
My choice for down here would be Wind. The largest turbines are generally the most effective, so that would mean installing about 500 7.5MW Enercons E-126's.
Sound a lot, but with 300 miles of coastline that is about 1 every 0.6 of a mile (1 km in Roman Catholic). That would leave the seaviews clear and the fantastic Cornish interior totally unspoilt. ^_^

I am not sure of the price on those turbines, probably about £10m each, so £5bn. The grid reinforcing would be about the same, as would some storage capacity. So that is £15bn.
I am not sure of the number of houses down here, let's say 300,000 including a few public buildings like hospitals, schools, councils admin buildings, hotels, etc. That would be about 2 people per building, which seems reasonable.
To put a HP installation in each of them may well cost £8,000, so £2.4bn.
Transport is even worse, again assuming 300,000 vehicles need to be replaced with all electric ones at about £22,000 each, that will be £6.6bn
Add that lot up and it is:
£15bn Generation and Grid
£2.4bn Heat Pump Conversion
£6.6bn Electric Transport
£24bn Total
The per capita cost would be £40,000, or just under 4 years wage (not everyone works down here, some are old, some are young and some, like me, under achieve). If this was spread over 10 years, then power would cost £80/week. After that is may halve to £40/week depending replacements needed. So between 2 and 4 times as much as today.
It is not an impossible problem, but a very expensive one, and not one that would go down well.
It may be possible to take the UKIP view and tax imports from England (except they will do it from the EU). To raise £24bn from the 5 million visitor stays each year would only be £4,800 each, again spread over 10 years, £500 quid to cross the Tamar.
Some things are best done at a national, or even international level. Power generation is one of them.

Edited by SteamyTea, 16 March 2015 - 10:17 PM.


#15 ferdinand

ferdinand

    Advanced Member

  • Member Blogger
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,031 posts

Posted 17 March 2015 - 06:36 AM

strat44, on 16 March 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:


Not hitting that just now, correct me if I'm wrong..................

There is no insulation in our loft so we called around and British gas will come and fit it all for free 300mm I believe. But thats about it, we can't get the grant toward buying better quality or for fitting kingspan in loft conversion etc.

The guy that did the survey was round the house in 2 mins and since we have had endless call to change our power provider, heating system etc etc.

We actually want to change the boiler but even including the BG grant or scrappage deal for the boiler it is more expensive than getting a plumber / HE to fit a new better boiler and better than the ones BG offer!
I

Haven't done much recently, but I had a free boiler {not bad -'Veissman'} for a tenant about 12 months ago because she just dipped into the tax credit zone by £100 or so for a single year, and the timing was right.

I've invested in the particular property significantly ybecause I believe in this stuff and it really pays to encourage long tenancies, and we have knocked the energy bills from 2700 down to 1300 ukp over 3 years while adding 50% to the area of the property. See over at the other place. We have not done EWI yet which would save another 25-30%, but I'm still catching my breath from spending 2 years rent on improvements already.

One issue here is that In spend the money and the tenant gets the immediate benefit.

http://www.greenbuil...cussionID=11560

That saving is equivalent to 20% of the rent to put it in perspective.

I think they are still throwing money at people on benefits for this kind of stuff. There are problems that it drives welfare dependency, but we actively subsidise poorer couples to break up their households and live apart which damages children so its not the biggest problem we have created.

If you want to access it one option is to get an appropriate lodger !

F