| Author | Message | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
In 1997 I installed Nu-Heat underfloor heating in my self build property after researching the subject widely. Last winter the system failed on several occasions and subsequenly a sample of tubing was analysed. Nu-Heat advised that 'there is no real point in continuing to repair the existing heating system due to the severity of the oxidation present'. Nu-Heat's sales literature had indicated that the system would be corrosion free, that no corrosion inhibitor was required, and that the system would have a long life with low maintenance. Nu-Heat deny any liability I would be grateful to hear from readers with similar experiences and in particular of any sucessful claims. | ||
| Steveo New Member Username: Steveo Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
It's a real shame to hear just after a few years the system has failed already. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 233 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Can you find any old sales info from 1997? Currently they are offering a 10 year warranty. I wonder what it was back then? Most of the current pipe on the market incorporates an oxygen barrier. I'm not sure when the importance of this was understood by the industry. Is the pipe marked with the DIN standard? If it is marked and it failed to meet the standard perhaps you have a claim? However another manufacturer implies that their pipe is so good if you see any corrosion it means you have a bad joint somewhere. So plenty of ways for a supplier to wriggle out of a claim. Have Nu-Heat explained what they think the cause is? | ||
| Buildersmate New Member Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 190 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: |
I would be particularly interested in keeping in touch with you MGH. My own Nu-Heat system is much newer, but like you I did considerable research on the subject, and I have been aware of the discussion in the industry for pipe with a oxygen barrier since about 1999 (it may have been around since long before then). As CW says, Nu-Heat currently offer a 10 year warrantee on the pipe as meeting the specification at the time of delivery. That warrantee is what I have. Do you have this? The gist of it is that the company shall at its option either replace or repair the goods without cost to the customer - an expensive commitment if it goes wrong. The pipe is marked all down its length as follows: - Nu-Heat Fastflo 10x1.5mm with oxygen barrier to DIN 4726 and DIN16892, HO PE-HDXc 38231. If you can see enough of the pipe, what does yours say? Through the pipe is one way in which oxygen can get into the system, but not the only way. Have you had a constant history of needing to bleed air from the system or lose of system pressure? Dissolved oxygen corrodes any steel components, of course - not a problem with copper although I believe over time it leaches the zinc out of brass. Have you got a completely plastic / copper / brass system, or are there conventional radiators as part of the overall system? As for corrosion inhibitor, I don't know what the manual may had said back in 1997 but Nu-Heat definitely now require an additive for the warrantee to be valid. And they supply a tube of Fernox with the installation kit. Are you saying there was no such advice back in 1997? Regards, Buildersmate | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thank you for the responses and guidance to date. Nu-Heat did offer a 10 year parts warranty. However, the main cost is in labour and replacing floor materials. I have no radiators and the tubing is laid within the screed on both the ground and first floor. Replacement will be expensive both in terms of money and time. Nu-Heat claim to place an emphasis on customer care and I was expecting a more sympathetic response than that demonstrated to date. The tubing provided at that time was Contraflo tubing and the following claims were made indicating that Fernox or any other corrosion inhibitor were not required; 'Corrosion free system - all components used in our system are free from the effects of corrosion caused by oxygen in water e.g. the recirculating pump is bronze'. 'No corrosion inhibitor is required in the floor heating circuit of systems using an EnergyMaster cylinder or a Nu-Heat exchanger'. My system was installed by a Nu-Heat nominated and approved installation engineer and until last year required minimal attention. All that was required was a pressure check at the beginning of winter. However, last year the system lost pressure on several occasions. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 238 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
If the pipe was never "not fit for purpose" you might have legal case regardless of the warranty. Try your local CAB office (free) or a solicitor and ask if you have a case under the "fittness for purpose bit of the sale of goods act". Ask if that would cover consequential loss such as the labour or hotel bills while you move out. The fact that you are "taking it further" might engourage Nu-heat to be more helpful. As a last resort.. It might also make a good story for BBC Watchdog. | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
This appears to be the nub of the issue. Nu-Heat advise that any action is statute barred in that it is more than 6 years since I purchased. On the basis that the system was defective at that point of sale it appears that a claim needs to be made within 6 years. However oxidation is a process taking place over a lengthy period of time and in my case was not apparent within the 6 year period. It appears that the only way I am going to be able to get redress from Nu-Heat is by legal challenge, but I am sure I am not an isolated case, so would be interested in hearing from others in this situation. 'Watchdog' is an option, but I think you are right it is a last resort. | ||
| Ufhdesigner New Member Username: Ufhdesigner Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
I have some experience with these types of issues and also work as a system designer for one of biggest UFH manufacturers. So you understand my caution in keeping my company name quiet. However, have you thought about approaching the UHMA for advise with this situation. If you dont know this is the trade organisation for the underfloor heating industry in the UK and all the main UK UFH companies are represented, apart from nu-heat,with the aim to promote high standards of products used and installation. Contact details via www.uhma.org.uk. Its worth a go anyway. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 241 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Did you go for a NHBC Solo (or Zurich) insurance policy when you built your house? Perhaps that would cover this? | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 242 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I note their web site now says... http://www.nu-heat.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.whatYouGetFastFlo "In addition, we will bear all expenses incurred by laying bare the defective products, their removal and the installation of faultless products as well as all subsequent costs necessary to restore the original building condition in a professional manner. We will also cover damage to persons and property resulting from the failure." | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the feedback. The house was built with an NHBC insurance policy, but when you look at the small print it is really limited to structural/settlement type issues. Particular thanks to ufhdesigner. I will contact the underfloor heating manufacturer's association. I have understandably drawn my own conclusions as to why Nu-Heat are not members of this representative trade body but perhaps there is a valid reason. | ||
| Addab New Member Username: Addab Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I had a Contraflo system supplied by Nu-Heat back in 1995, which I understand was manufactured in a material called Santoprene (red colour) and as yet has had no problems. As I am currently in the progress of building again I have had a quote from Nu-Heat. Interestingly, they are now quoting Fastflo tube which is a DIN standard Pex tube with oxygen barrier with a 10 year insurance warranty, which I understand they supplied since 1997 and the majority of the ufh supplier’s use. At the time I had a quote, I probed them as to why the change, due to concerns over my current system, which they said was due to issues in certain water conditions that can affect the tube but can be prevented with Fernox inhibitor. Hope this helps. | ||
| Spert New Member Username: Spert Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Regretfully the tube you have in your house has a fundemental problem with it. It was introduced to the market a few years before your installation and the problems were not apparent at the time. Later when their systems were falling apart, it was found that the problem pointed to copper that is used in plumbing the systems. Copper ions leaching out into the water attacked the tube (which is called SANTOPRENE) and depending on the amount of copper ions present indicated the life of the tube. Nothing can be done to repair this tube if it has been attacked. The best way of staving off the enevitable is to flush out every year and install Fernox inhibitor. Keep the pressure of the system to between .5 - 1.0 bar only and the temperature to below 60 deg C. This tube does not have an oxygen barrier and so all components have to be non ferrous. That is bronze pumps, brass and copper etc. No radiators to be installed on this type of system as well. Nu-heats latest tube is a different material. Its called Pex-a. A cross-linked polyethylene plastic. It has an oxygen barrier. It is used by most other UFH companies in one guise or another. It is my experience that NH is not interested in dealing with this problem, even though systems are less that 10 years old. They will only supply the new system components to you at the cost to them, plus a small profit. The remedial costs are yours. NH are not members of UHMA and, it is my opion only, until they stop putting a joint box in the floor will not be. I hope with a little care your system will last much longer. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 292 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the info Spert. About two-three years ago at a show one UFH company (I don't remember which) told me that their pipe didn't need an oxygen barrier because they "used a stainless steel boiler". I think they also told me that all condensing boilers were stainless steel. I was wondering if replacing copper fittings with stainless steel ones would be worth considering? They might well corrode faster but that might be better than having the pipe degrade. | ||
| Buildersmate New Member Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 220 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Spert, you obviously know quite a bit about NH, their recent problems and UFH in general (judging from your other posts on the topic). I'm also a NH user, more recent system with the newer pipe. I have a different set of issues with NH. If you are willing to contact me offline I would very much like to correspond with you by email. jbassociates@tiscali.co.uk | ||
| Spert New Member Username: Spert Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Good day Cwatters, IMO the ufh company who told you that they did not need an oxygen barrier were talking rubbish. If you put a system boiler on the system it would have a steel pump for a start. Radiators/towel rails would be steel, unless they specifically told you they had to be non ferris. Except for 1 company that I know of, all tube now used has an oxygen barrier as part of its construction. I have only come across two companies that have had problems with their pipe in the past. Both used the same product in the production of their pipe. (See previous) Fitting Stainless pipe and fittings would be prohibitive. (and expensive). | ||
| Kimrr New Member Username: Kimrr Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I too installed a large Nu-Heat system in 1997, and am in the same position as Mgoldhawk. The walls of the 9 year old tubing are now less than half their original thickness despite complying with Nu-Heat recommendations for water softening and later Fernox addition. The whole system requiries replacing within months! I would like to talk to any of the many similarly affected customers and can be contacted at richard_kimber@btopenworld.com | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all the useful information, particularly from Spert, and for keeping this thread alive. I have now obtained a barristers opinion who has advised me that it is possible to pursue a claim for negligence. I have also commissioned an expert witness to examine the system. He has confirmed that it has been installed as per Nu-Heat specification. My installer advises me that he personally is aware of 3 new similar examples but having a business relationship with Nu-Heat is unwilling to provide details. I am contacting Kimrr, but would also still like to hear from other people in this position. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 328 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I wondered if Google could help... Looks like someone (in Cambridge?) has similar problem... http://armb.livejournal.com/118476.html | ||
| Caliwag New Member Username: Caliwag Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
How do you find these things Colin? Wag | ||
| Dgr New Member Username: Dgr Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I too installed Nu- Heat underfloor heating in 1996 and so far have not experienced any major problems, although I am now very concerned as to what may soon occur. When I first enquired in 1995 Nu-Heat was the distributor for Kee triple tubing, marketed as ‘Contraflow’. This product was manufactured in Northern Ireland and Nu-Heat was just a distributor. Kee systems are still sold direct. From the catalogue I have it states ‘’Kee triple tubing is made fron Santoprene 101.73 thermoplastic rubber and can be recycled. The performance of Santoprene 101.73 in independent tests shows an expected life of 114 years at an operating temperature of 700C. Kee engineers however recommend a working flow temperature of 570C. The triple tubing carries a 25 year manufacturer’s warranty’’. On 19 March 1996 I received a letter from Nu-Heat stating that it was now introducing an improved floor heating tube which was a dual pipe system, rather than triple, and would be referred to as ‘Contraflo’. ‘’Contraflo tubing is extruded in Santoprene 201.73, is manufactured in Great Britain under BS5750 quality controlled standards and guaranteed against defects in material and workmanship’’. When my order was delivered I foolishly assumed it would be to the same 25 year guarantee that Kee offered, but apparently not. (I believe there was a disagreement between Kee and Nu-Heat which may explain the change from ‘Contraflow’ to ‘Contraflo’) Nu-Heat supplied me with Contraflo, which I duly installed. In the ‘Nu-Heat News’ of Spring 1995 it states ‘’Nu-Heat’s system design with an Energy Master hot water cylinder separates the heating system from the boiler. All components in the heating system circuit are corrosion-free without the need for a chemical inhibitor’’. Also, in another brochure it states, ‘’The self-contained floor heating circuit is free from corrosion for long life and low maintenance. There is no need for a so-called oxygen diffusion barrier in the tubing’’. In ‘Nu-Heat News’ of Winter 1994, there is an item entitled ’’Corrosion in heating systems: Nu-Heat provides the complete answer’’. ‘’Corrosion takes place when oxygen and water come into contact with ferrous metals (iron and steel). Heating systems can contain ferrous components such as pumps and radiators. Some boilers are cast iron. The use of chemical inhibitors has come a long way towards solving the problem, but the strength of the solution must be maintained throughout the life of the system. The complete answer is a heating system containing only corrosion free materials. The Nu-Heat Energy Master underfloor heating system is 100% corrosion free. All components are manufactured from non-ferrous materials such as brass, bronze, copper and engineering grade thermoplastic rubber. The sealed underfloor heating circuit is separated from the boiler water by a copper heat exchanger’’. About a year after installation I received a complimentary tube of Fernox from Nu-Heat with the explanation that problems may occur in certain applications and as a precaution they now advised dosing the systems. I have done this repeatedly and can only hope. This situation is of great concern to us all. See also www.wragge.com/legaladvice/disputes/default_1266.html - 40k | ||
| Dogman New Member Username: Dogman Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2006 Rating: N/A |
I had a similar problem with a New heat Kee triple tube system(black) fitted in 1993. The tube deteriorated at the manifold. New heat denied any resposibility stating that the company had changed hands and were not liable for any old instalations. I did manage to get a repair kit at cost!. Loved underfloor heating but would use a system from else where the next time around | ||
| Ufh_concerns New Member Username: Ufh_concerns Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
To any of the above or subsequent readers. The situation regarding Nu-Heat UFH systems that used the Kee tubing (Santoprene) prior to the introduction of their own Fastflo (PEX) is unsatisfactory for Santoprene users and unsettling for UFH users in the UK. Whilst Nu-Heat may be wishing to hide behind the 6 year statute of limitation, this may be valid from the date that the defect could have first reasonably been noticed, not the date of the installation. For further info on this, email fastflo_user@tiscali.co.uk (underscore character in the middle of the email address) | ||
| Homeb1 New Member Username: Homeb1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
I too installed a red Kee tube Nu Heat system in Jan 1996, which until Feb 2005 performed well. First tube failure occurred under kitchen floor, i was able to remove enought floor to find & repair. I eventually sent the failed pipe to Nu Heat in Jan 2006(!). They promply advised me of the Copper corrosion problem, and promised an engineer to visit. They proposed dosing with Fernox, changing manifolds for plastic, & fitting an expansuion vessel. - of course at my cost. It took 3 weeks for the engineer to call to make appointment to visit, during which time 2 further pipes have failed in the ground floor. I have had only 2 small leaks at the manifold. I have to say that other pipe i have exposed looks in good condition, but of course the whole system needs replacing. I have written to Nu Heat suggesting they replace the system, but expect the samre answer as others have had, so i have also instructed my solicitor. Interesting to see that the original maker in NI seems to be still trading under a new name http://www.underfloordirect.co.uk/ and the same product is also offered by Rayotec http://www.rayotec.com/home_underfloor_heating.htm. I assume with an inproved material. I think we should all try to co ordinate our approach to Nu Heat, they are clearly hoping all these "small" people wil go away, this is NOT going to happen. Anyone interested can contact me off line @ stevewoodgate@btinternet.com | ||
| Violils New Member Username: Violils Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
we to have had problem recently . We have red contraflow pipe and it has been leeking on the manifolds. We have repaire the over numerous times.We then had a big problem and a Nu Heat recommended engineer came.We replaced all the tubing on the manifiolds withrepair kits.He told us that it might be better if we replaced all our copper manifolds with plastic to stop the errosion.This has worked for a week.I have since repaire another leek at a manifold we don't have enough to repair.Got up this morning no pressure in the system oh no we cannot find a leek on the manifolds.We are scared all the ground floor is wooden with the kitchen standing on it.We are going to try and locate which area has the leek and go from there.We were told that it was a maintenance free system and did not need an inhibitor in it.I have loved the under floor heating.But dreaded some thing like this happening.We have the energy master cylinder heated by a worcester boiler,A towl rail and 3 radiators working off the system . Can anyone advise. Thanks | ||
| Newbuild New Member Username: Newbuild Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
Hi. We are in the process of building a substantial three storey house on the south coast. The floors are block and beam with limestone on the ground floor. We propose installing underfloor heating and are currently obtaining info and quotes. Whilst appreciating that the industry may have learned a lot since 1997, the thought of lifting limestone does not appeal and I am now wondering if we should proceed along the traditional route? Any advice as to companies/installers to use (or not to use!)now for UFH? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 473 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I'll also be laying UFH under stone and oak floors in about two months time. I think the industry has indeed learned a lot since the early days and problems do seem to be rare. I'd like to know if there is any difference in reliability between PEX and Butyl UFH pipe? | ||
| Adaervon New Member Username: Adaervon Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2006 Rating: N/A |
Hi, I feel very worried as we have just fitted UFH system from Nu Heat, we followed all the manuals and fitted 3 towel rails using the aquastar system, we supplied our own rails and now it seems that non ferrous rails were needed as there seems to be a tinge of colour when the hot taps are turned on. In the Nu Heat brochure it says any type of towel rail can be used however they recommend non ferrous ones, obviously any type of towel rail cannot be used because if it's ferrous it will oxidise and "pollute" the system, look forward to anyone's advice as I've tiled around these rails and have already paid a pretty penny on the rails, tiles, etc and now it looks like we have to replace them for a different type | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 385 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yes, I'm afraid you will have to change them. Unless Nu-Heat have changed the content of their installation manual, the manual is pretty clear about this. I quote 'It is important to note that steel towel rails must not be used on domestic hot water loop, only non-ferrous towel rails are suitable.' This is V4 manual, dated March 2004. It seems unlikely that they have upgraded the manual to degrade this advice, but if they have, I would complain. I don't recommend buying rads from Nu-heat - too expensive. The best range I found were made by JIS Ltd here. http://www.sussexrange.com They don't sell direct and its best to shop around. I found Homebase sold one of the JIS range - called the Elipse by Homebase, at less price than I could negotiate from any bathroom specialist. | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 613 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I don't think the towel rail issue just relates to Nu Heat systems. I'm sure I've also seen info from the towel rail makers that says you can't put steel rads on any domestic hot water circuits. | ||
| Adaervon New Member Username: Adaervon Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2006 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the info' you two. Do you know anyone who wants to buy three steel towel rails used once only? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 621 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Sorry no. Make that 4 rads as I've got one as well. Try ebay? | ||
| Frustrated New Member Username: Frustrated Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
I have been reading the various entries regarding the failure of the Nu Heat underfloor heating. I had a system installed in my new house in 1997. The system has been problematic since day one, However over the last three years I have experienced the pipes thinning at the walls and bursting at one particular manifold constantly. I managed to rectify this by adding new extensions of a different type of pipe. This has so far held. The main problem has been in the lower floor where I have several pipe failures due to oxidisation of the pipe. To cut a long story short Nu Heat have agreed to replace all the pipe work and manifolds, however I will have to pay for the labour to do this which will be substantial due to the size of the house. As per the various correspondence I have seen there seems to be no other means of compensation. Obviously the house was designed around an underfloor heating system and it is difficult to put any other system in. However I was wondering if any of the correspondents had any update on their dealings with Nu Heat or any alternative heating systems in which to retrofit a house suffering from this type of failure in an economical way. | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 710 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I'm not a big fan of electric UFH but I guess it should be easy enough to install this over the top of an existing floor screed an pipe UFH. It would be wise to isolate and drain any area of the wet UFH that have electric UFH added over the top. There appear to be several people here with a similar problem so perhaps you should get to gether to share legal costs. In the USA you would probably be fighting off the laywers wanting to file a class action on your behalf. | ||
| Steveo Bronze Level Contributor Username: Steveo Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
So who do you think is actually to blame? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 715 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
If a car manufacturer had a number of customers who's engines had failed in the same way (despite being serviced in accordance with the instructions) they would feel obliged to issue a recall. Normally such a recall covers labor as well as the parts. | ||
| Devoncouple New Member Username: Devoncouple Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
We have a house that was newly built in 2002/3, and we bought it from the developers (Gerald Wood Homes) in 2004. Since then, we have had a never-ending set of problems with the heating (does anyone else find it costs a fortune to run?) including all the things mentioned above such as loss of pressure etc, also a lot of noise. I would seriously be interested in getting together a group that wanted to do some kind of group action to get them to replace the systems. Please contact me if you are interested. dvncouple@yahoo.co.uk | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 493 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Is it a system designed by Nu-Heat, Newton Abbott? | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
i am currently working in a house with 5yr old pipes no problems there but polystyrene had a junkers oak floor over it and has broken up in large areas , we are still waiting for nu heats engineer to call after 3 weeks , and they wanted money up front to come and look , beware , martyn | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 763 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Any idea why the polystyrene broke up? The installation you describe sounds quite common and I haven't heard of that kind of failure before. Perhaps you can put a photo on one of the freehost sites? | ||
| Caliwag Silver Level Contributor Username: Caliwag Post Number: 244 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Sounds like the floor surface broke up Colin! Wag | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
The middle section (polystyrene)of the floor has lost its structure , it has not actualy broke up but become very spongey so i do not see how we can lay a new floor over it as it will be like laying a floor over a jelly ,as the doorways allow up to 20 mm flex , i have tried to get load bearing figures fron nu heat but speed of reply is not one of there strong points!!! | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 504 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
So what's the structure of your floor in cross-section? 60mm of screed in which the Nu-Heat pipes are buried over polystyrene? 60mm of screed puts a loading of about 100kg/m2 onto the polystyrene, plus the normal loading of the Junkers and furniture on top. Polystyrene should be capable of supporting this? What do you think happened and is it anything to do with leaking pipes? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 772 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: |
Sounds like they used pipe in the poly with no screed. We're planning to use a similar system from OSMA (although this also has thin metal heat spreader plates. It sounds like the Junkers floor was flexing a lot as people walk on it. Polystyrene won't take that. There should have been battens the same depth as the poly between the panels to support the wood floor. Perhaps they were omitted or were too far apart? Was the Junkers very thin? | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
the floor construction was 150 mm concrete floor pad and 50 mm of polystyrene laid over with pipes in grooves in top 15mm , over this is a caping sheet of 6mm ply and topped off with 22mm t and g junkers oak floor , this was laid at 90 degrees to main run of pipes , all main traffic areas worn but of course doorways are very bad , we are still waiting for the nu heat engineer to arrive , of course it is holding up whole job and 8,000 of oak is not getting any drier | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 776 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
So no battens to stop the foam compressing. | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 508 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Of the various 'approved' construction methods by Nu-Heat Ltd, this isn't one of them (but it may have been in the past - don't know). They do show construction methods using floating floors - the nearest equivalent to what you have shows a batten around the edge to support the capping sheet, which should be 18 0r 22m chipboard or ply, not 6mm. However I suppose the thick Junkers on top is OK in this respect. However the layer for the pipes is shown as a 20mm layer of Extra-High density polystyrene with tracks in it, which Nu-Heat sell as an option. Separate layer of floor insulation goes below this layer (polystyrene now no good for meeting current B. Regs). Pipes sit in heat transfer plates, within the poly. Maybe your poly isn't EHD; that sounds like what caused the problem. Can't think you have any claim against Nu-Heat unless they previously showed this method in their installation manual. The one I'm looking at was published in March04. | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
the floor does not have any battens ,but pipes do sit in the aluminium difuzer plates , the whole design was done by nu heat and installed by there approved installer but who ever thought this system would last must be a dreamer .que , does anyone know when this system was deleted from the range ,and can anyone tell me what 90 kpa @ 1% mewans in n/m2 or any other normal pressure measure . | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 780 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
1 Pascal = 1 n/m2 so 90kpa = 90,000 n/m2 Not sure what 1% mewans means. Possibly 1% compression? 90kpa translates into about 9000 kg/m2 A 100kg human has feet with an area of say 0.06m2 which works out at 1666 kg/m2 Sounds ok but I suspect walking exerts far higher loads. Easy to account for 4 times that pressure and much more in high heels .. .but I'm not sure if this helps any as the 20mm floor should spread the load a fair bit. | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 514 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Unless you know otherwise for your specific installation, Nu-heat design the system in terms of the sizing of components and the required layout of the tracks in the floors. They do not specify which method should be used to fix the pipes nor can I see how they could control it. Approved installer is a dodgy term. Nu-heat provide training courses for those wishing it and they may provide prospective customers with lists of installers who have been on the course, but it isn't a prerequisite. The whole point about the Nu-heat concept is that it was designed with self-builders in mind - that's part of the reason why the manual is so comprehensive. Nu-heat then provide limited warranty (some would say very limited) if and only if the insallation is carried out in accordance with the manual. All I'm saying is that your pipe layout method isn't in the 2004 manual. Thus I fear any claim you might possibly have would be with the installer, not with Nu-heat. The installation contract was with him. | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
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