| Author | Message | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
In 1997 I installed Nu-Heat underfloor heating in my self build property after researching the subject widely. Last winter the system failed on several occasions and subsequenly a sample of tubing was analysed. Nu-Heat advised that 'there is no real point in continuing to repair the existing heating system due to the severity of the oxidation present'. Nu-Heat's sales literature had indicated that the system would be corrosion free, that no corrosion inhibitor was required, and that the system would have a long life with low maintenance. Nu-Heat deny any liability I would be grateful to hear from readers with similar experiences and in particular of any sucessful claims. | ||
| Steveo New Member Username: Steveo Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
It's a real shame to hear just after a few years the system has failed already. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 233 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Can you find any old sales info from 1997? Currently they are offering a 10 year warranty. I wonder what it was back then? Most of the current pipe on the market incorporates an oxygen barrier. I'm not sure when the importance of this was understood by the industry. Is the pipe marked with the DIN standard? If it is marked and it failed to meet the standard perhaps you have a claim? However another manufacturer implies that their pipe is so good if you see any corrosion it means you have a bad joint somewhere. So plenty of ways for a supplier to wriggle out of a claim. Have Nu-Heat explained what they think the cause is? | ||
| Buildersmate New Member Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 190 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: |
I would be particularly interested in keeping in touch with you MGH. My own Nu-Heat system is much newer, but like you I did considerable research on the subject, and I have been aware of the discussion in the industry for pipe with a oxygen barrier since about 1999 (it may have been around since long before then). As CW says, Nu-Heat currently offer a 10 year warrantee on the pipe as meeting the specification at the time of delivery. That warrantee is what I have. Do you have this? The gist of it is that the company shall at its option either replace or repair the goods without cost to the customer - an expensive commitment if it goes wrong. The pipe is marked all down its length as follows: - Nu-Heat Fastflo 10x1.5mm with oxygen barrier to DIN 4726 and DIN16892, HO PE-HDXc 38231. If you can see enough of the pipe, what does yours say? Through the pipe is one way in which oxygen can get into the system, but not the only way. Have you had a constant history of needing to bleed air from the system or lose of system pressure? Dissolved oxygen corrodes any steel components, of course - not a problem with copper although I believe over time it leaches the zinc out of brass. Have you got a completely plastic / copper / brass system, or are there conventional radiators as part of the overall system? As for corrosion inhibitor, I don't know what the manual may had said back in 1997 but Nu-Heat definitely now require an additive for the warrantee to be valid. And they supply a tube of Fernox with the installation kit. Are you saying there was no such advice back in 1997? Regards, Buildersmate | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thank you for the responses and guidance to date. Nu-Heat did offer a 10 year parts warranty. However, the main cost is in labour and replacing floor materials. I have no radiators and the tubing is laid within the screed on both the ground and first floor. Replacement will be expensive both in terms of money and time. Nu-Heat claim to place an emphasis on customer care and I was expecting a more sympathetic response than that demonstrated to date. The tubing provided at that time was Contraflo tubing and the following claims were made indicating that Fernox or any other corrosion inhibitor were not required; 'Corrosion free system - all components used in our system are free from the effects of corrosion caused by oxygen in water e.g. the recirculating pump is bronze'. 'No corrosion inhibitor is required in the floor heating circuit of systems using an EnergyMaster cylinder or a Nu-Heat exchanger'. My system was installed by a Nu-Heat nominated and approved installation engineer and until last year required minimal attention. All that was required was a pressure check at the beginning of winter. However, last year the system lost pressure on several occasions. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 238 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
If the pipe was never "not fit for purpose" you might have legal case regardless of the warranty. Try your local CAB office (free) or a solicitor and ask if you have a case under the "fittness for purpose bit of the sale of goods act". Ask if that would cover consequential loss such as the labour or hotel bills while you move out. The fact that you are "taking it further" might engourage Nu-heat to be more helpful. As a last resort.. It might also make a good story for BBC Watchdog. | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
This appears to be the nub of the issue. Nu-Heat advise that any action is statute barred in that it is more than 6 years since I purchased. On the basis that the system was defective at that point of sale it appears that a claim needs to be made within 6 years. However oxidation is a process taking place over a lengthy period of time and in my case was not apparent within the 6 year period. It appears that the only way I am going to be able to get redress from Nu-Heat is by legal challenge, but I am sure I am not an isolated case, so would be interested in hearing from others in this situation. 'Watchdog' is an option, but I think you are right it is a last resort. | ||
| Ufhdesigner New Member Username: Ufhdesigner Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
I have some experience with these types of issues and also work as a system designer for one of biggest UFH manufacturers. So you understand my caution in keeping my company name quiet. However, have you thought about approaching the UHMA for advise with this situation. If you dont know this is the trade organisation for the underfloor heating industry in the UK and all the main UK UFH companies are represented, apart from nu-heat,with the aim to promote high standards of products used and installation. Contact details via www.uhma.org.uk. Its worth a go anyway. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 241 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Did you go for a NHBC Solo (or Zurich) insurance policy when you built your house? Perhaps that would cover this? | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 242 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I note their web site now says... http://www.nu-heat.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.whatYouGetFastFlo "In addition, we will bear all expenses incurred by laying bare the defective products, their removal and the installation of faultless products as well as all subsequent costs necessary to restore the original building condition in a professional manner. We will also cover damage to persons and property resulting from the failure." | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the feedback. The house was built with an NHBC insurance policy, but when you look at the small print it is really limited to structural/settlement type issues. Particular thanks to ufhdesigner. I will contact the underfloor heating manufacturer's association. I have understandably drawn my own conclusions as to why Nu-Heat are not members of this representative trade body but perhaps there is a valid reason. | ||
| Addab New Member Username: Addab Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I had a Contraflo system supplied by Nu-Heat back in 1995, which I understand was manufactured in a material called Santoprene (red colour) and as yet has had no problems. As I am currently in the progress of building again I have had a quote from Nu-Heat. Interestingly, they are now quoting Fastflo tube which is a DIN standard Pex tube with oxygen barrier with a 10 year insurance warranty, which I understand they supplied since 1997 and the majority of the ufh supplier’s use. At the time I had a quote, I probed them as to why the change, due to concerns over my current system, which they said was due to issues in certain water conditions that can affect the tube but can be prevented with Fernox inhibitor. Hope this helps. | ||
| Spert New Member Username: Spert Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Regretfully the tube you have in your house has a fundemental problem with it. It was introduced to the market a few years before your installation and the problems were not apparent at the time. Later when their systems were falling apart, it was found that the problem pointed to copper that is used in plumbing the systems. Copper ions leaching out into the water attacked the tube (which is called SANTOPRENE) and depending on the amount of copper ions present indicated the life of the tube. Nothing can be done to repair this tube if it has been attacked. The best way of staving off the enevitable is to flush out every year and install Fernox inhibitor. Keep the pressure of the system to between .5 - 1.0 bar only and the temperature to below 60 deg C. This tube does not have an oxygen barrier and so all components have to be non ferrous. That is bronze pumps, brass and copper etc. No radiators to be installed on this type of system as well. Nu-heats latest tube is a different material. Its called Pex-a. A cross-linked polyethylene plastic. It has an oxygen barrier. It is used by most other UFH companies in one guise or another. It is my experience that NH is not interested in dealing with this problem, even though systems are less that 10 years old. They will only supply the new system components to you at the cost to them, plus a small profit. The remedial costs are yours. NH are not members of UHMA and, it is my opion only, until they stop putting a joint box in the floor will not be. I hope with a little care your system will last much longer. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 292 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the info Spert. About two-three years ago at a show one UFH company (I don't remember which) told me that their pipe didn't need an oxygen barrier because they "used a stainless steel boiler". I think they also told me that all condensing boilers were stainless steel. I was wondering if replacing copper fittings with stainless steel ones would be worth considering? They might well corrode faster but that might be better than having the pipe degrade. | ||
| Buildersmate New Member Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 220 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Spert, you obviously know quite a bit about NH, their recent problems and UFH in general (judging from your other posts on the topic). I'm also a NH user, more recent system with the newer pipe. I have a different set of issues with NH. If you are willing to contact me offline I would very much like to correspond with you by email. jbassociates@tiscali.co.uk | ||
| Spert New Member Username: Spert Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Good day Cwatters, IMO the ufh company who told you that they did not need an oxygen barrier were talking rubbish. If you put a system boiler on the system it would have a steel pump for a start. Radiators/towel rails would be steel, unless they specifically told you they had to be non ferris. Except for 1 company that I know of, all tube now used has an oxygen barrier as part of its construction. I have only come across two companies that have had problems with their pipe in the past. Both used the same product in the production of their pipe. (See previous) Fitting Stainless pipe and fittings would be prohibitive. (and expensive). | ||
| Kimrr New Member Username: Kimrr Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I too installed a large Nu-Heat system in 1997, and am in the same position as Mgoldhawk. The walls of the 9 year old tubing are now less than half their original thickness despite complying with Nu-Heat recommendations for water softening and later Fernox addition. The whole system requiries replacing within months! I would like to talk to any of the many similarly affected customers and can be contacted at richard_kimber@btopenworld.com | ||
| Mgoldhawk New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all the useful information, particularly from Spert, and for keeping this thread alive. I have now obtained a barristers opinion who has advised me that it is possible to pursue a claim for negligence. I have also commissioned an expert witness to examine the system. He has confirmed that it has been installed as per Nu-Heat specification. My installer advises me that he personally is aware of 3 new similar examples but having a business relationship with Nu-Heat is unwilling to provide details. I am contacting Kimrr, but would also still like to hear from other people in this position. | ||
| Cwatters New Member Username: Cwatters Post Number: 328 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I wondered if Google could help... Looks like someone (in Cambridge?) has similar problem... http://armb.livejournal.com/118476.html | ||
| Caliwag New Member Username: Caliwag Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
How do you find these things Colin? Wag | ||
| Dgr New Member Username: Dgr Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I too installed Nu- Heat underfloor heating in 1996 and so far have not experienced any major problems, although I am now very concerned as to what may soon occur. When I first enquired in 1995 Nu-Heat was the distributor for Kee triple tubing, marketed as ‘Contraflow’. This product was manufactured in Northern Ireland and Nu-Heat was just a distributor. Kee systems are still sold direct. From the catalogue I have it states ‘’Kee triple tubing is made fron Santoprene 101.73 thermoplastic rubber and can be recycled. The performance of Santoprene 101.73 in independent tests shows an expected life of 114 years at an operating temperature of 700C. Kee engineers however recommend a working flow temperature of 570C. The triple tubing carries a 25 year manufacturer’s warranty’’. On 19 March 1996 I received a letter from Nu-Heat stating that it was now introducing an improved floor heating tube which was a dual pipe system, rather than triple, and would be referred to as ‘Contraflo’. ‘’Contraflo tubing is extruded in Santoprene 201.73, is manufactured in Great Britain under BS5750 quality controlled standards and guaranteed against defects in material and workmanship’’. When my order was delivered I foolishly assumed it would be to the same 25 year guarantee that Kee offered, but apparently not. (I believe there was a disagreement between Kee and Nu-Heat which may explain the change from ‘Contraflow’ to ‘Contraflo’) Nu-Heat supplied me with Contraflo, which I duly installed. In the ‘Nu-Heat News’ of Spring 1995 it states ‘’Nu-Heat’s system design with an Energy Master hot water cylinder separates the heating system from the boiler. All components in the heating system circuit are corrosion-free without the need for a chemical inhibitor’’. Also, in another brochure it states, ‘’The self-contained floor heating circuit is free from corrosion for long life and low maintenance. There is no need for a so-called oxygen diffusion barrier in the tubing’’. In ‘Nu-Heat News’ of Winter 1994, there is an item entitled ’’Corrosion in heating systems: Nu-Heat provides the complete answer’’. ‘’Corrosion takes place when oxygen and water come into contact with ferrous metals (iron and steel). Heating systems can contain ferrous components such as pumps and radiators. Some boilers are cast iron. The use of chemical inhibitors has come a long way towards solving the problem, but the strength of the solution must be maintained throughout the life of the system. The complete answer is a heating system containing only corrosion free materials. The Nu-Heat Energy Master underfloor heating system is 100% corrosion free. All components are manufactured from non-ferrous materials such as brass, bronze, copper and engineering grade thermoplastic rubber. The sealed underfloor heating circuit is separated from the boiler water by a copper heat exchanger’’. About a year after installation I received a complimentary tube of Fernox from Nu-Heat with the explanation that problems may occur in certain applications and as a precaution they now advised dosing the systems. I have done this repeatedly and can only hope. This situation is of great concern to us all. See also www.wragge.com/legaladvice/disputes/default_1266.html - 40k | ||
| Dogman New Member Username: Dogman Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2006 Rating: N/A |
I had a similar problem with a New heat Kee triple tube system(black) fitted in 1993. The tube deteriorated at the manifold. New heat denied any resposibility stating that the company had changed hands and were not liable for any old instalations. I did manage to get a repair kit at cost!. Loved underfloor heating but would use a system from else where the next time around | ||
| Ufh_concerns New Member Username: Ufh_concerns Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
To any of the above or subsequent readers. The situation regarding Nu-Heat UFH systems that used the Kee tubing (Santoprene) prior to the introduction of their own Fastflo (PEX) is unsatisfactory for Santoprene users and unsettling for UFH users in the UK. Whilst Nu-Heat may be wishing to hide behind the 6 year statute of limitation, this may be valid from the date that the defect could have first reasonably been noticed, not the date of the installation. For further info on this, email fastflo_user@tiscali.co.uk (underscore character in the middle of the email address) | ||
| Homeb1 New Member Username: Homeb1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
I too installed a red Kee tube Nu Heat system in Jan 1996, which until Feb 2005 performed well. First tube failure occurred under kitchen floor, i was able to remove enought floor to find & repair. I eventually sent the failed pipe to Nu Heat in Jan 2006(!). They promply advised me of the Copper corrosion problem, and promised an engineer to visit. They proposed dosing with Fernox, changing manifolds for plastic, & fitting an expansuion vessel. - of course at my cost. It took 3 weeks for the engineer to call to make appointment to visit, during which time 2 further pipes have failed in the ground floor. I have had only 2 small leaks at the manifold. I have to say that other pipe i have exposed looks in good condition, but of course the whole system needs replacing. I have written to Nu Heat suggesting they replace the system, but expect the samre answer as others have had, so i have also instructed my solicitor. Interesting to see that the original maker in NI seems to be still trading under a new name http://www.underfloordirect.co.uk/ and the same product is also offered by Rayotec http://www.rayotec.com/home_underfloor_heating.htm. I assume with an inproved material. I think we should all try to co ordinate our approach to Nu Heat, they are clearly hoping all these "small" people wil go away, this is NOT going to happen. Anyone interested can contact me off line @ stevewoodgate@btinternet.com | ||
| Violils New Member Username: Violils Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
we to have had problem recently . We have red contraflow pipe and it has been leeking on the manifolds. We have repaire the over numerous times.We then had a big problem and a Nu Heat recommended engineer came.We replaced all the tubing on the manifiolds withrepair kits.He told us that it might be better if we replaced all our copper manifolds with plastic to stop the errosion.This has worked for a week.I have since repaire another leek at a manifold we don't have enough to repair.Got up this morning no pressure in the system oh no we cannot find a leek on the manifolds.We are scared all the ground floor is wooden with the kitchen standing on it.We are going to try and locate which area has the leek and go from there.We were told that it was a maintenance free system and did not need an inhibitor in it.I have loved the under floor heating.But dreaded some thing like this happening.We have the energy master cylinder heated by a worcester boiler,A towl rail and 3 radiators working off the system . Can anyone advise. Thanks | ||
| Newbuild New Member Username: Newbuild Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
Hi. We are in the process of building a substantial three storey house on the south coast. The floors are block and beam with limestone on the ground floor. We propose installing underfloor heating and are currently obtaining info and quotes. Whilst appreciating that the industry may have learned a lot since 1997, the thought of lifting limestone does not appeal and I am now wondering if we should proceed along the traditional route? Any advice as to companies/installers to use (or not to use!)now for UFH? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 473 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I'll also be laying UFH under stone and oak floors in about two months time. I think the industry has indeed learned a lot since the early days and problems do seem to be rare. I'd like to know if there is any difference in reliability between PEX and Butyl UFH pipe? | ||
| Adaervon New Member Username: Adaervon Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2006 Rating: N/A |
Hi, I feel very worried as we have just fitted UFH system from Nu Heat, we followed all the manuals and fitted 3 towel rails using the aquastar system, we supplied our own rails and now it seems that non ferrous rails were needed as there seems to be a tinge of colour when the hot taps are turned on. In the Nu Heat brochure it says any type of towel rail can be used however they recommend non ferrous ones, obviously any type of towel rail cannot be used because if it's ferrous it will oxidise and "pollute" the system, look forward to anyone's advice as I've tiled around these rails and have already paid a pretty penny on the rails, tiles, etc and now it looks like we have to replace them for a different type | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 385 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yes, I'm afraid you will have to change them. Unless Nu-Heat have changed the content of their installation manual, the manual is pretty clear about this. I quote 'It is important to note that steel towel rails must not be used on domestic hot water loop, only non-ferrous towel rails are suitable.' This is V4 manual, dated March 2004. It seems unlikely that they have upgraded the manual to degrade this advice, but if they have, I would complain. I don't recommend buying rads from Nu-heat - too expensive. The best range I found were made by JIS Ltd here. http://www.sussexrange.com They don't sell direct and its best to shop around. I found Homebase sold one of the JIS range - called the Elipse by Homebase, at less price than I could negotiate from any bathroom specialist. | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 613 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I don't think the towel rail issue just relates to Nu Heat systems. I'm sure I've also seen info from the towel rail makers that says you can't put steel rads on any domestic hot water circuits. | ||
| Adaervon New Member Username: Adaervon Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2006 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the info' you two. Do you know anyone who wants to buy three steel towel rails used once only? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 621 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Sorry no. Make that 4 rads as I've got one as well. Try ebay? | ||
| Frustrated New Member Username: Frustrated Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
I have been reading the various entries regarding the failure of the Nu Heat underfloor heating. I had a system installed in my new house in 1997. The system has been problematic since day one, However over the last three years I have experienced the pipes thinning at the walls and bursting at one particular manifold constantly. I managed to rectify this by adding new extensions of a different type of pipe. This has so far held. The main problem has been in the lower floor where I have several pipe failures due to oxidisation of the pipe. To cut a long story short Nu Heat have agreed to replace all the pipe work and manifolds, however I will have to pay for the labour to do this which will be substantial due to the size of the house. As per the various correspondence I have seen there seems to be no other means of compensation. Obviously the house was designed around an underfloor heating system and it is difficult to put any other system in. However I was wondering if any of the correspondents had any update on their dealings with Nu Heat or any alternative heating systems in which to retrofit a house suffering from this type of failure in an economical way. | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 710 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I'm not a big fan of electric UFH but I guess it should be easy enough to install this over the top of an existing floor screed an pipe UFH. It would be wise to isolate and drain any area of the wet UFH that have electric UFH added over the top. There appear to be several people here with a similar problem so perhaps you should get to gether to share legal costs. In the USA you would probably be fighting off the laywers wanting to file a class action on your behalf. | ||
| Steveo Bronze Level Contributor Username: Steveo Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
So who do you think is actually to blame? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 715 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
If a car manufacturer had a number of customers who's engines had failed in the same way (despite being serviced in accordance with the instructions) they would feel obliged to issue a recall. Normally such a recall covers labor as well as the parts. | ||
| Devoncouple New Member Username: Devoncouple Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
We have a house that was newly built in 2002/3, and we bought it from the developers (Gerald Wood Homes) in 2004. Since then, we have had a never-ending set of problems with the heating (does anyone else find it costs a fortune to run?) including all the things mentioned above such as loss of pressure etc, also a lot of noise. I would seriously be interested in getting together a group that wanted to do some kind of group action to get them to replace the systems. Please contact me if you are interested. dvncouple@yahoo.co.uk | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 493 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Is it a system designed by Nu-Heat, Newton Abbott? | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
i am currently working in a house with 5yr old pipes no problems there but polystyrene had a junkers oak floor over it and has broken up in large areas , we are still waiting for nu heats engineer to call after 3 weeks , and they wanted money up front to come and look , beware , martyn | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 763 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Any idea why the polystyrene broke up? The installation you describe sounds quite common and I haven't heard of that kind of failure before. Perhaps you can put a photo on one of the freehost sites? | ||
| Caliwag Silver Level Contributor Username: Caliwag Post Number: 244 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Sounds like the floor surface broke up Colin! Wag | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
The middle section (polystyrene)of the floor has lost its structure , it has not actualy broke up but become very spongey so i do not see how we can lay a new floor over it as it will be like laying a floor over a jelly ,as the doorways allow up to 20 mm flex , i have tried to get load bearing figures fron nu heat but speed of reply is not one of there strong points!!! | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 504 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
So what's the structure of your floor in cross-section? 60mm of screed in which the Nu-Heat pipes are buried over polystyrene? 60mm of screed puts a loading of about 100kg/m2 onto the polystyrene, plus the normal loading of the Junkers and furniture on top. Polystyrene should be capable of supporting this? What do you think happened and is it anything to do with leaking pipes? | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 772 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: |
Sounds like they used pipe in the poly with no screed. We're planning to use a similar system from OSMA (although this also has thin metal heat spreader plates. It sounds like the Junkers floor was flexing a lot as people walk on it. Polystyrene won't take that. There should have been battens the same depth as the poly between the panels to support the wood floor. Perhaps they were omitted or were too far apart? Was the Junkers very thin? | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
the floor construction was 150 mm concrete floor pad and 50 mm of polystyrene laid over with pipes in grooves in top 15mm , over this is a caping sheet of 6mm ply and topped off with 22mm t and g junkers oak floor , this was laid at 90 degrees to main run of pipes , all main traffic areas worn but of course doorways are very bad , we are still waiting for the nu heat engineer to arrive , of course it is holding up whole job and 8,000 of oak is not getting any drier | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 776 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
So no battens to stop the foam compressing. | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 508 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Of the various 'approved' construction methods by Nu-Heat Ltd, this isn't one of them (but it may have been in the past - don't know). They do show construction methods using floating floors - the nearest equivalent to what you have shows a batten around the edge to support the capping sheet, which should be 18 0r 22m chipboard or ply, not 6mm. However I suppose the thick Junkers on top is OK in this respect. However the layer for the pipes is shown as a 20mm layer of Extra-High density polystyrene with tracks in it, which Nu-Heat sell as an option. Separate layer of floor insulation goes below this layer (polystyrene now no good for meeting current B. Regs). Pipes sit in heat transfer plates, within the poly. Maybe your poly isn't EHD; that sounds like what caused the problem. Can't think you have any claim against Nu-Heat unless they previously showed this method in their installation manual. The one I'm looking at was published in March04. | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
the floor does not have any battens ,but pipes do sit in the aluminium difuzer plates , the whole design was done by nu heat and installed by there approved installer but who ever thought this system would last must be a dreamer .que , does anyone know when this system was deleted from the range ,and can anyone tell me what 90 kpa @ 1% mewans in n/m2 or any other normal pressure measure . | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 780 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
1 Pascal = 1 n/m2 so 90kpa = 90,000 n/m2 Not sure what 1% mewans means. Possibly 1% compression? 90kpa translates into about 9000 kg/m2 A 100kg human has feet with an area of say 0.06m2 which works out at 1666 kg/m2 Sounds ok but I suspect walking exerts far higher loads. Easy to account for 4 times that pressure and much more in high heels .. .but I'm not sure if this helps any as the 20mm floor should spread the load a fair bit. | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 514 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Unless you know otherwise for your specific installation, Nu-heat design the system in terms of the sizing of components and the required layout of the tracks in the floors. They do not specify which method should be used to fix the pipes nor can I see how they could control it. Approved installer is a dodgy term. Nu-heat provide training courses for those wishing it and they may provide prospective customers with lists of installers who have been on the course, but it isn't a prerequisite. The whole point about the Nu-heat concept is that it was designed with self-builders in mind - that's part of the reason why the manual is so comprehensive. Nu-heat then provide limited warranty (some would say very limited) if and only if the insallation is carried out in accordance with the manual. All I'm saying is that your pipe layout method isn't in the 2004 manual. Thus I fear any claim you might possibly have would be with the installer, not with Nu-heat. The installation contract was with him. | ||
| Martyn New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
as far as i can see the system was designed by nu heat , all the comonents were purchased from nu heat and thier approved installer installed , the method used was as recommended by them at that time but time has not been kind , remember this is a house with only three occupants normally so light traffic in real terms . to use the car analogy do you take the local bmw dealer to court everytime the car breacks down , no there is a system called waranty, but as far as i can see it ia better to buy a propriety system eg guest rather than be ripped by nu heat and their non warranty | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 784 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
You can probably to argue that the polystyrene insulation was unfit/unsuitable for the purpose. The purpose being to insulate AND support the floor boards to prevent them crushing the pipes. You may need to find an old copy of the installation manual that shows your method. | ||
| Cwatters Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 785 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
The car analogy is tricky...with manufacturers warranties you have two choices... 1) Claim under the manufacturers warranty (which typically ammounts to a seperate contract between you and the manufacturer) OR 2) claim against the dealer using the sale of goods act. You cannot claim against the manufacturer under the sale of goods act unless they were also the seller. In your case they were both manufacturer and seller. The issue is... was it the installation or the product that was defective... If your installer installed the heating according to the specification supplied by the seller then I believe the seller is liable. If the installer made up his own method of installation then he is probably liable. The manufacturer might still be liable if the installer was acting as the sellers "agent" but chances are the small print of their contract makes clear that the installer is not their agent. (That term agent probably has a legal definition that differs from the normal use of the word agent). | ||
| Buildersmate Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 516 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Not sure I can help much further, Martyn. I've described to you what I know of Nu-heat's floor construction methods - you say the one you have is approved - you will need to demonstrate that to Nu-heat. The warranty does only apply if the procedures in the installation manual were followed. It also applies only to the faulty pipe - not the floor. If you had bought a kit of parts of a BWM car and assembled it, I'd agree with your analogy. | ||
| Tik33
New Member Username: Tik33 Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2005 Rating: N/A |
I've just read this post with a degree of horror. Like other people, this is the biggest concern over UFH - especially if it's buried in screed and under layers of floor - at least with a rad system and copper pipes under the floorboards - it's easy to spot where the problem is. Like a lot of you I go to these shows and hear the sales people say how they've 'never' had a problem with their pipes - clearly they are talking rubbish - is it just this company nu-heat - are there any other nightmare companies to avoid??? As a suggestion for your dilemmas - I would suggest that you should write to the consumer pages in the broadsheets - times etc. and definitely talk to the BBC. I'm sure that one of them would like to run a story on this. Also, if any of you subscribe to Which magazine - they have a cheap legal services team that specialise in this stuff - that might be worth a try too. good luck! | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 588 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Actually my Nu-Heat system is working rather well though I wouldn't go as far as to recommend them. The company undoubtedly had problems in the early days with the plastic pipe - some of which is captured in these threads. I reckon you have to maintain absolute control on the quality of the installation on any UFH; then you stand a good prospect of avoiding future problems. | ||
| Tik33
New Member Username: Tik33 Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2005 Rating: N/A |
Buildersmate, thanks for your reply. How would you suggest maintaining the quality that you talk about? My architects want me to get an M&E engineer - but I'm thinking that a design and build plumber should be able to do all this sort of stuff. Bearing in mind I'm going to add some solar thermal collectors to my system, which route would you advise? | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 596 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
I supervised it myself and insisting in being there ALL the time the plumber was on site doing the pipe. It took him and me one day to lay all the pipe. Then I programmed the project to do the screeding as short a time later as possible (2 days). And I watched while the 3 of them did the screeding. It's the bits under the concrete I was interested in - I can change the copper and visible components if I ever have to. | ||
| Pegasus
New Member Username: Pegasus Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
We have a Nu-Heat under floor heating system which was installed 98/99 that has recently developed leaks on the first floor and the ground floor which have already damaged the fabric of the property. We are horrified to read the postings on this site but thankful that they are there as they are assisting us in realising the reasons for the leaks. Unfortunately it appears that we have now joined a growing number of people who have put their faith in a seemingly unsatisfactory underfloor heating system. We have an immediate problem of addressing and stopping the leaks at the zone distribution manifolds and would ask any one out there if they have experience of doing this successfully. If so how did they do it. Please can anyone tell us how to do this successfully so as to stop any further damage to the structure of our house. We are advised that the wall thickness of the pipe may have reduced due to oxidisation and that this may be the cause of premature system failure. After the warmth of the summer / autumn these problems are developing as the system responds to the need for heating due to the lowering temperature. The thought of what might occur as the temperature drops further and the heating system kicks in fills us with dread. Our system uses the red Contra flow piping. We understand that we may have a case against Nu-Heat re expert witness advice and barrister comment. Did anyone go down the watch dog or any other route? | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 620 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
The best advice to try and keep your system alive for longer is to read the advice posted above by Spert in January 2006. There are a number of personal websites from individuals with the problem of the red pipes - try contacting them. Its not clear whether any of the above correspondents have actually gone as far as taking Nu-Heat to court over this debarcle. | ||
| Mgoldhawk
New Member Username: Mgoldhawk Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for keeping this thread going. I will be attending an initial court hearing on 8 December. If there is anyone else still in dispute with Nu-Heat due to failure of the tubing I'd really like to hear from you, particularly if it is around the same age as mine (1997). I can be contacted via mark.goldhawk@btinternet.com | ||
| Pegasus
New Member Username: Pegasus Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
We contacted Nu-Heat who advised us that, according to their records, our red contra-flow piping was a different manufacture to the piping that has caused some problems. Nu-Heat were very helpful and sent their own engineer to look at our installation. On that same visit he replaced a number of plastic spigots on many of the zone manifolds and re-clipped all the connections. This work was done over a month ago and to date we have not experienced any further leaks. Just the ceiling to repair! At this stage we would express our thanks to Nu-Heat for their considerate and prompt attention to our situation. | ||
| Cashel1
New Member Username: Cashel1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2007 Rating: |
Dear E-build member, I installed a Kee triple tube underfloor heating system in my new self-build in 1995. The tubing was installed by myself (I'm an electrician), and inspected by the MD of Kee, while it was under test pressure before the screed floors were installed. The system was advertised as having a 25 year warranty, although I don't have this in writing from that time. Recently the tubing has failed in several locations and as a result I am currently without any heating. I found and repaired the first leak as it was close to one of the manifolds, the tubing had worn paper thin and seemed to be just wearing away. I am convinced that the subsequent leaks are the same and as my floors are completely tiled, I am very reluctant to dig up the floors and all that goes with it, without some guarantee that someone will foot the bill for all of the consequential damage along with the replacement of the tubing. Attempts to contact Kee have been in vain as the MD for Kee has retired and there is now another company, Underfloor Direct, who are now selling Kee ststems along with their own system, they gave me the insurance details of Kee Radiant Floor Heating Ltd, but I've also drawn a blank with these. I would be very interested to find out if anyone has been successful in taking court action in cases like this. Yours hopefully, Cashel1 | ||
| Cwatters
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 1310 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
The website for Underfloor Direct seems to be linked to the one for http://www.keeheating.co.uk/about/index.html See "About Us" "KEE Triple Tube Underfloor Heating Ltd." Perhaps they purchased the company. If the company was sold then it depends what the sale contract says - did they buy the previous companies liabilities as well as their assets. Perhaps not. Best try to find out what happened to the original company Kee company via Companies House or whatever they call themselves now. | ||
| Martyn
New Member Username: Martyn Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
hello. just read thro site again , i had amajor problem with polystyrene breacking up , some of which was orriginal builders damage , but in reality cutting all the pipeways at high load doorways ,and especting a flooting floor to last ,nu-heat must be in the dream engineering school , fix floor down to battens ,yes but still will need much convinsing all this worry about beried pipes and huge cost of repair work still outweighs the supposed benefits , iam sorry but nice radiators and copper pipes have lasted 100 yrs at least , will nu heat still be around in spite of all tha sales hype , i dought it . martyn | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 760 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Think yourself lucky you haven't got a system with the old Santoprene tubing. Then its a lottery called 'guess the date the tubes will pop off the manifold'. | ||
| Ufh
New Member Username: Ufh Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2007 Rating: N/A |
all the red tube rubber tubes are likely to rot the companys providing it will attempt to stretch out your claim to beyond 8 years to escape any legal obligation to a not fit for purpose. some of the 10mm plastic tube also suffers from sloppy sock ie the oxygen barrier is a layer on the outside and will slide down the pipe when its become detached. | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 881 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Interesting, UFH. Can you tell its happening (sloppy sock) by inspecting the joints? | ||
| 313bcp
New Member Username: 313bcp Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2007 Rating: N/A |
I am in a similar position to Buildersmate and Goldhawk in that my NU Heat system is the old santoprene pipe and over the years I have suffered numerous leaks at various points around the system. The system is now on the verge of total failure and Nu Heat have admitted albeit verbally and not in writing that the pipe had a problem with it. (it was made by Monsanto and they are too big for Nu Heat to sue) They make on offer to provide a system FOC but you pay for removal and installation of the new system (therefore completely useless offer) or contribution to replacement with central heating. They are also trying to hide behind warranty and commissioning certificates which were not provided or documented in their installation manual. Interestingly even though my dealings to date with Nu Heat have been very amicable every piece of correspondence is entitled with "WITHOUT PREJUDICE" to cover against submission in court. Therefore this posting is also provided WITHOUT PREJUDICE. The phrase Class Action keeps springing to mind for some unknown reason!! | ||
| Dtay9999
New Member Username: Dtay9999 Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
All the above scares me - Nu-Heat was one of the companies that I was seriously considering going with, but now having second thoughts. Are there any other UFH companies that folk would recommend? | ||
| Ufh
New Member Username: Ufh Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2007 Rating: N/A |
Try OSMA Underfloor Heating they are not the very professional slick salesmen of Nu Heat however in my mind they are the best products. Builders mate, Sloppy sock is when the external Oxygen barrier de laminates and seperates from the pipe, Mainly happens at the manifold and is pretty rare. | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 929 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the explanation. BM | ||
| Pipine
New Member Username: Pipine Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
Are these failures of the red triple tube all from old versions of the pipe? Have they changed to a different type of pipe now? We're thinking of installing the Kee Triple Tube system and are rather concerned by all these reports of pipe failure. | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1194 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
The above thread does relate to the red triple tube. It is many years since Nu-Heat changed this pipe, and Kee are believed to have done the same. However Kee were believed to continue to sell a pipe without an oxygen barrier is place long often this was known to be a problem in the industry. (The oxygen barrier prevents the ingress of oxygen through the plastic pipe into the water, creating gas in the system and the potential for the corrosion of steel components if inhibitor is not present). The issue for many customers is one of trust - one is installing a system that one expects to last for many years and which will be virtually impossible to replace - certainly without major disruption to the householder. Some of the people responsible for this may have moved on, but why deal with an organisation with a questionable track record at dealing honestly with customers - especially after the original problem was known. There are many more systems on the market now for you to consider. | ||
| Pipine
New Member Username: Pipine Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
Kee are advertising the fact that they don't have the oxygen barrier as a positive reason to buy the triple tube system... "Traditionally underfloor heating systems have used an oxygen barrier within the tubing to eliminate this problem but the triple tube system goes one step further by removing all ferrous components." Will the removal of all ferrous components fix this issue? | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1198 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Spert - are you out there? You're best at answering this one. | ||
| Keepheat
New Member Username: Keepheat Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
apparently the kee system uses secondary heat from a twin coil cylinder and the lower coil is the heat exchanger its stainless steel??.. but still The manifolds are brass and the pipes around the manifold are copper and soldered, will leave flux n crap unless proper flush out. kee has removed ferrous components. so is everything plastic? have you seen the layout of the manifold on their website wow??. every system i install i have to provide samples to fernox to be passed i use a digital analyiser you prob seen them. where the system needs to be within 10% of tap water. some days it can take upto 6 hours. i used to work for a leading UFH co. for many years, (none of the above). i seen alot of people install there own systems because its easy to lay ufh. then call back two years later with problems. its all about the flush out and use of chemicals, and regular testing. and using the pump in the summer months. | ||
| Spert
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Spert Post Number: 93 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Kee have turned around the argument for the oxygen barrier by saying that it is not needed due to the use of non ferrous metals. In theory this works, but in practice it can lead to problems. Firstly the pumps used are usually made of bronze, and have to be replaced like with like over the years of the system being in the floor, but sods law states that your intrepid plumber can (and does) install the usual 15/50 or 15/60 grundfos off the shelf, which then puts the system in jeopody. This type of steel pump will rust in weeks, and deposit copious amounts of iron oxide into the tube. The cylinder used has to have a secondary coil which is rated to produce temperatures around the 60 deg mark, (consider replacement of the right cylinder in ten/15 years time?) as usually there is a valve present to reduce the temperature to the working value. If this valve fails in the hot position then the tube can suffer from over heating. By using a Pex or Hep20 type pipe the temperature and oxygen problems are eliminated. Modern manifolds are equipped with a blending arrangement which prevents high temps to the tube. Pumps are bought off the shelf at a third of the cost of a bronze pump, and the tube has a pedigree going back over 30 years with its use on the continent. IMO there is no contest. The contraflow system Kee use has no real benefit except maybe on initial start up but as the floor continues to get warm this benefit diminishes. Keepheat is correct when he says that thorough cleaning is essential on commissioning. Luckily when filling the system for the first time all the air has to be expelled and this usually cleans the tubes as well. One last thing the correct amount of inhibitor is essential, this can be measured by the amount of tube present and this gives the amount of water in the system. 1 tube of fernox is usually not enough when put into an average system. | ||
| Pipine
New Member Username: Pipine Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for your advice, its really helpful... UFH is such a big investment, we want to make the right choice.. so its really useful to hear from people with experience in UFH. We've requested a quote from OSMA. Anyone suggest any other good suppliers we should consider? | ||
| Keepheat
New Member Username: Keepheat Post Number: 5 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
IPPEC systems in birmingham. i know the company well. they do all kinds of plumbing and heating systems with plastic since mid 80's. also they are assoisiate members with the underfloor heating manifactures assosiation UHMA. i think they have set alot of standards in the industry they do PEXpipe. i'm sure most of the big UFH CO's have got it all sorted by now, alot of the problems today are either old installations when ufh was new to alot of us, or badly installed in the first place, ie not flushed etc. try to pick up your stuff from supplier you can get messed around with delivery etc, talk to them take in your drawings. | ||
| Stephenq
New Member Username: Stephenq Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
I bought a house 5 years ago that had Nu-heat underfloor heating fitted. From the first winter and every year therafter i have had problems with the red pipe splitting at the manifold which i only discover when water drips from the kitchen ceiling. Nu-heat have on request sent new clips for me to use FOC which until recently I thought was very kind. yesterday we had another leak and when I checked the usual suspects found nothing. instead to my horror I found a one inch lengthwise split in the pipe about 14 inches from the manifold. Speaking to nu heat they said they would send a repair kit FOC but when I pressed them about the frequency of these issues was told that the pipe they bought from an irish manufacturer years ago was not up to the job and that basically I should get a new heating system and by the way would I like to buy their new one!! When I queried the warranty I was told that the date of purchase of the system was 1996 and that it was just out of warranty. Clearly all their previous help was just to nurse the sytem along until the warrant period expired. has anyone had any success pursuing them for compensation and has anyone any ideas about replacing the system? thanks | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1447 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Stephen. Sorry to hear about your problems. I assume you've read the majority of the above thread, in which case you will see that there is no co-ordinated (or class) action with regard to this issue. Or none that I'm aware of, anyway. I am not impacted by this - I have a later system, but nevertheless I've sought to track what is going on. At least one of the people in the thread above has being pursuing action through the courts, but in relation to the 6 years statute of liability, not the 10 year limited warranty offered by the company. Personally I think you are onto a hiding to nothing - the company is unlikely to help other than the nursing actions. You can minimise future degradation by holding down the temperature of the circulating water in the plastic pipes to say 40. The failure mode occurs where the pipe is hottest - from the outgoing manifold to a few centimetres beyond the entrance into the slab. The Irish manufacturer they refer to is Kee Systems (see above). The long-term prognosis is eventual replacement. Spert - can you add to this? | ||
| Cwatters
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 2943 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I wonder if HIP inspectors, surveyors or the NHBC are as aware of this issue as they should be? Are they be pointing it out to potential buyers? If not have any surveyors found themselves liable yet? I wonder what their professional body has to say? With all the interest in building programs on TV perhaps you might interest a TV producer in making a program. (Message edited by CWatters on January 03, 2008) | ||
| Gaz79
New Member Username: Gaz79 Post Number: 5 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
I have just found this post a recently ordered UFH from nu-heat and am now a bit worried. I am nown to late having paid the deposit and was wondering if the new systems are any more reliable. | ||
| Gaz79
New Member Username: Gaz79 Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
Also I was going to install towel rails and copper pipe work. Will this be okay in the new a new NU under floor system. Also should I be puting a inhibitor in the system. Or should I scrap the idea and install radiator thorught the house and just lose my deposit. | ||
| Keepheat
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Keepheat Post Number: 130 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
looking at the pipe they use i cant see why you should not have your UFH. looking at the web site it looks like they supply a system that has continuous loops without joints in the floor and also its alupex. that is quality pipe. i cant speak for the other posts regarding faulty pipe. but these are 10 year old installations. and we dont know all the facts, its not fair to post bad comments about a company name as these posts show up on search engine results and can damage the reputation of a company. care must be taken when installing these systems, excessive heat can shorten the life span of the underfloor heating pipes and inadequate water treatment also will effect the pipes. | ||
| Spert
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Spert Post Number: 103 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Gaz79, you will have no problems with your new Nu-Heat system. Looking at their web site they are selling two types of system, a 10mm tube and a 14mm tube. The 14mm is the best to go for, and their manuals are around the best in the business. This helps with the installation, especially if the installer is not experienced or you wish to install yourself, and they have a reputation of having the details of your system on file in case you need help in the years ahead. Also spares parts will be available that will fit your system. Fitting towel rails and copper pipe work is not a problem with their systems. The key to any under floor heating system is the experienced installer. When completed, the commissioning is carried out and this checks the system for correct operation. Adding the correct amount of inhibitor is an essential part of the commissioning. As Buildersmate has indicated, NH's UFH systems, including their thermal stores work very well and there are no problems with their pipe. | ||
| Cwatters
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 2985 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
I agree with what's just been written. Companies have learned from past mistakes and improved the technology. That's a different issue to how they treat people with old system. As with all heating systems make sure you use the correct amount of corrosion inhibitor in the system and maintain that level. I don't think any UFH company now claims it's not necessasy as they did a decade ago. Don't let service engineers just tip in half a bottle. Read the instructions on the back, do the sums and work out how much you need. It helps if you know how much UFH pipe you have installed. Then you can easily work out the volume of water in the pipe and any tanks. In my case I need multiple bottles of the stuff and it's not cheap to drain and refill the system. | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1461 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Gaz79 - if you want to contact me offline I'm happy to share what I know with you. Three years down the line and my system works a treat. But I've taken steps to ensure I can always get to the underfloor boxes. I also have the heated towel rail option and provided you use stainless steel rads, it is OK (because it runs on the DHW system). Nu-Heat provided inadequate volumes of inhibitor for the size of my system - something I will never forgive them for. For that and other reasons I will not recommend the system on this forum. | ||
| Gaz79
New Member Username: Gaz79 Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Thanks for the comments that put my mind at rest. Buildersmate I would be intrested in hearing from you my email is garethforsyth@gmail.com Thanks | ||
| Countrylife
New Member Username: Countrylife Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hello. I have just bought a house with nu-heat underfloor heating. I believe it was installed in 97 and at present 1 zone has been shut down due to a leak. On the legal side of things I have found marketing leaflets dating back to 1994 that suggest the tubing from KEE had a life expectancy of 100 years and that the system was designed to be non corrosive. I can scan in a copy if anyone is interested. | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1466 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Countrylife. Most people close to the situation probably know about that document. It doesn't really help when there is a statute of limitation of six years under English law. Follow the guidelines above to try and extend the life of your remaining zones. | ||
| Ken
New Member Username: Ken Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Buildersmate, You seem fairly clued on this issue. I have the red pipe which thus far has caused no problems. However church on sunday would seem like a good idea after reading this board. If I pump a cartridge of fernox into the ufloor circuit would you know which one i can safely use with this pipe. Installed 1997. Or would I just be better flushing it out once a year. | ||
| Keepheat
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Keepheat Post Number: 144 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
I’d love to know how these systems have been installed, as i cant see how a pipe can degrade that fast, even with sludge, if the installation was up to scratch?. I’m sure with this red pipe issue their must be manufacturing issues because the same pipe is mentioned allot. however a lot of people are pointing these installations or systems to nu-heat. id be interested to find out if the installations them selves have anything to do with it. the first thing i would look at is temperature control. i.e. what safeguards the heating pipes from continuous high temperatures. its not un-common to find installations that are connected directly to the boiler without having mixers on them. And only using the room thermostat to control the temperature of the floor instead of pipe sensors, and fixed boiler settings etc. if any one of the previous posters that have these bad pipe systems could tell us the arrangements of the system, it would shed light on this subject for me any way. and if the system installations do have some responsibility you could get them re-arraigned. when you have a mixer on the system at least the return temperature is monitored, but then you do get the initial flow temperature out of the boiler quite high, unless the boiler flow temperature is also regulated. if the systems are secondary heat supplied then its less risk. you do need regular maintenance of the system water, and inhibitor regardless of what the manufacture said 10 years ago. | ||
| Cwatters
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cwatters Post Number: 3060 Registered: 12-2004 Rating: N/A |
Can't comment on Nu-Heat but as I understand it there have been a number of causes of plastic pipe failure, both with the quality of installation and the material used for the pipe and the joints. Polybutelene pipe is seen as a problem in the USA and there have been class actions. Even so it's still not clear what the main problem is with that... Blames "oxidants in the public water supplies, such as chlorine".. http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html Says polybutylene did not degrade when tested with Chlorine and hot water... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V50-4GX0BF8-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5f3240da6fabbcced594eb0e37ff7686 Says "ninety percent of all leaks are at joints in the piping" but also "tubing itself has been splitting"... http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/nov94/leaks.html I also half recall reading a story about a problem with copper leaching out of fittings and that was then reacting with one type of plastic pipe. I know the joints used in the early days of polybutelene in the USA were quite crude and the replacement design using crimped copper bands seems little better. In case you think I'm anti plastic pipe... I've only recently installed Osma Gold in my house (I believe that is a Polybutelene pipe). The push fit fittings are very different to those used in the USA years ago and the installer took extra care to ensure the pipe was allways pushed home fully. My UFH uses the same stuff and I'm using Fernox at the right concentration. | ||
| Keepheat
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Keepheat Post Number: 145 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
(In case you think I'm anti plastic pipe) no mate i can see you have researched this from previous posts anyway, and you wouldn’t choose ufh if you were, my views are with everybody else on this subject, and it must be horrible for the people that inherit these poor pipe systems. because i install underfloor heating myself and i only joined this forum a few months ago, im shocked at the amount it occurs and with the same names in toe. I wasn’t aware it was as wide spread. i was thinking that a team of dodgy installers could have been fitting them in 10 years ago and may have some responsibility. just to add to the blame.. maybe. but then there is a design spec for these manifold / ufh arrangements. anyway with these repeat posts, we should compile a list of checks these guys could look for on their systems, it may help prolong the ufh life span. ;0( | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1486 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
The technical problem with the red pipe was best explained by Spert very early in this thread. Because this is now a very long thread it is sometimes hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. I have repeated his comments here. "Regretfully the tube you have in your house has a fundemental problem with it. It was introduced to the market a few years before your installation and the problems were not apparent at the time. Later when their systems were falling apart, it was found that the problem pointed to copper that is used in plumbing the systems. Copper ions leaching out into the water attacked the tube (which is called SANTOPRENE) and depending on the amount of copper ions present indicated the life of the tube. Nothing can be done to repair this tube if it has been attacked. The best way of staving off the enevitable is to flush out every year and install Fernox inhibitor. Keep the pressure of the system to between .5 - 1.0 bar only and the temperature to below 60 deg C. This tube does not have an oxygen barrier and so all components have to be non ferrous. That is bronze pumps, brass and copper etc. No radiators to be installed on this type of system as well. Nu-Heat's latest tube is a different material called Pex-a. It is a cross-linked polyethylene plastic with an oxygen barrier and is used by most other UFH companies in one guise or another." The pipe had its origins in the USA - it was made by Monsanto. Kee imported it and then supplied it on to Nu-Heat. As far as I know, there is only one type of red pipe - and hence all red pipe systems are suspect. Spert's advice explains how to try and lengthen the life of the system but the issue is copper ion corrosion from the inside and this is enhanced at higher temperatures. This is why these systems leak where the pipe is at its hottest - between the outgoing manifold and a first few metres under the floor. All Nu-Heat systems have controls on them such that the input water temperature is controlled by blending cooler 'out' water with hotter 'in' water. I have my system set to run the blended temperature at 50, and this produces 27 at the 'out' point once steady-state is reached. The lower the input temperature that any user of Santoprene tubing can get away with, the longer it is likely to last, because the action of corrosion is higher at elevated temperatures. See Spert's comments about flushing once a year (to remove the copper ions deposited in the water) and using a new tube of inhibitor (so slow the leaching process). I don't believe any one inhibitor is different from any other - but Spert or others please comment on this if necessary. None of the above impacts those with later tubing (which is not red). | ||
| Ken
New Member Username: Ken Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Buildersmate, Many thanks for the advice. I flushed out this morning. Sadly only the second time in 10 years. I only have flow and return temperature guages to monitor temps (no blenders). The flow maxes at 45 no matter that the tank stat is set to 60 and the return is usually 10 below. I'll assume thats okay. My question about inhibitor was born out of a concern not to damage the santoprene. One other question. How do you physically get inhibitor into the pipework. | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1492 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Nu-Heat initially supplied me with Fernox F1 like this. http://www.fernox.com/?cccpage=super_protector&sub=8 The same product is available in a non-concentrated form like this http://www.fernox.com/?cccpage=protector_500ml&sub=8 Nu-Heat have told me that this product is similar http://www.sentinel-solutions.net/en/heating/X100/concentrate I install it through the filling loop of the system, before I connect the loop up to the mains water to refill. But it depends whether your loop connects to pipework that goes downwards, to allow the gooey material to flow into the copper pipes. | ||
| Spert
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Spert Post Number: 104 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Ken, I'm assuming that you have NH's thermal store which will regulate the output temperature to the floor heating. 45 degs is a little low for that arrangement, and may mean that the bottom temp thermostat is reading low. Increase the temp to 65 degs and then check the flow temp. I would also suggest you change the temperature pressure gauge on the flow which will mean a more accurate reading of the flow and pressure readings. NH will have them in stock. When you flushed out did you see any debris in the water being flushed? Before you put in the inhibitor I would suggest you flush again but this time into a light coloured bucket, which will identify the condition of the water and also you will see any debris that is being flushed. This will give an indication of the condition of the system in general. This I would suggest to any owner of any UFH system, usually after a period of 3 years when the inhibitor would be showing signs of needing renewal. On your system you should have the filling loop attached to the bottom of the return brass block, and it is easy to install the inhibitor. Drain a little water out of the system to bring the pressure down to under a half a bar. Connect the Fernox adaptor to the end of the flexible hose and attach the cartridge and then squeeze the whole of the Fernox Concentrate inhib into the system. Add the right amount, and then attach the flexible hose back the incoming main and then flush the pipe into the system to bring the whole system up to pressure. | ||
| Keepheat
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Keepheat Post Number: 147 Registered: 08-2007 Rating: N/A |
yeah cheers guy's some very good info and links about these pipes etc. in future ill know exactly what pipes to look out for if ever I’m called to change a manifold or boiler etc that may have these pipes. you wouldn’t want the blame for these pipes splitting.. one thing that is a concern for me, is the wall thickness of some of the now pipes that are on sale, obviously they have to conform to British & European standards. I notice that some pipes have a wall thickness of 1.5mm and some 2.2 etc. also nu-heat sell 10mm 14mm. the pipe I install is either standard 16mm pex 2mm wall thickness and 16mm x 2.2mm for alupex. does anybody on here have an issue with different sizes etc. I’ve got to say there is more awareness on this forum about underfloor heating pipe than anywhere else I’ve found, also I think UHMA is working towards a UK recognised qualification for installers. till now a manufactures certificate of training is all that I’m aware of. for myself, I was probably lucky to be employed by a manufacture some years ago, and was given access to all the info they had. but there are so many pipes and systems out there I tend to stick with what I know works. other companies may offer better controls or manifolds and fixing systems from one another but may not offer the pipe you have confidence in. just to add. recently I had to change a set of manifolds on an open vented ufh system that was 18 years old the pipe was 17mm pex. the manifolds were completely corroded, another words I didn’t even have to undo the nuts to pull the manifolds off the pipe. The pipe was in really good shape, I give it a flush out cause the water was brown and fitted an expansion vessel filling loop etc on and that’s all ok. I was unsure about putting pressure into it, but for now its all fine. this system was all solid floor construction, and 1st floor had screed with a ceiling layer of pipes and a floor layer. the A/C was tight to fit all 4 manifolds in so I had to use loads of expensive 17mm couplers at £6 each. also i was called out to a ufh leak that somebody had drilled a hole into a pipe in screed, that was 13 years old i removed a section of the pipe and repaired, again this was 17mm pex in really good shape, im not sure if you can get 17mm any more???? Apologies guy's for going on about this subject too much, but I’m sure it all adds to the topic of tried and tested pipes, any way who are the Ginny pigs when the pipes are tested in these labs over 30 years etc.??? that was a joke…  | ||
| Leemick
Regular Contributor Username: Leemick Post Number: 44 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: N/A |
17mm * 2mm is our prefered size and with connectors can be adapted to join with any pipe size or type available For information on Underfloor Heating visit www.leemick.co.uk Yes we are advertising | ||
| Nuheat_blues
New Member Username: Nuheat_blues Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
My wife and I designed and had built a neo-classical style (Georgian style property). We designed it around Nu-Heat underfloor heating so that we could maximise space (no visible radiators). Initially the product worked well, the underfloor heating creating an even temperature keeping all rooms at an appropriate temperature. However, increasingly we have experienced numerous leaks. It is clear from the contributions in this thread that Nu-Heat have failed to admit - at least to us their knowledge of their faulty product since they were first aware of it and have fobbed us off with replacement tubing, so that we would not be allerted to the problems before the warranty expired. The system has been installed since our house was first built - 11 years ago. Please can anyone provide an update on any legal challenges curently underway? Has anyone actually tried Watchdog? | ||
| Buildersmate
Gold Level Contributor Username: Buildersmate Post Number: 1684 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
As this was in 1997, you must have red tubing? When did it first start to go wrong that you reported back to Nu-Heat? | ||
| Peter_a
Gold Level Contributor Username: Peter_a Post Number: 902 Registered: 06-2007 Rating: N/A |
about 10 years later id guess . lol | ||
| Nuheat_blues
New Member Username: Nuheat_blues Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
We do have red tubing. I can't remember the first time we had a problem precisely, but it must be 5 or 6 years ago. We've had the sytem about 11 years. Almost invariably it was winter time when the temperature at which we had the system operating was higher than it is the rest of the time. We have had several problems over the years with one of the guages the system uses failing and have needed to get it and the pump changed several times. These issues have clearly been of insignificance compared with the leaking tubing which have forced us to have our floors replaced in the past and we are now faced with having to contemplate the same outcome again. | ||
| Temp
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Temp Post Number: 93 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
I was googling for something else and stumbled on these people who I guess someone might find helpful. They are expert witnesses with experience in handling faulty UFH claims.. http://www.gamorris.co.uk/EXPERT.HTM "Investigation and reporting on failures in an underfloor heating system in a large country house and carrying out the design and supervision of replacement works. Acting on behalf of the Employer and the matter was settled with the Contractor." | ||
| Ericclubley
New Member Username: Ericclubley Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2008 Rating: N/A |
10 yr old Kee/Underfloor triple (red) tube system. Many splits in tube within 3 metres of manifold. I hve kept all sectiosn that leaked; I think problem is the new system has a thermal cut-out and old system didn't. Anyway I'm up for spending and losing if necessary some money to get some response | ||
| Nellahc
New Member Username: Nellahc Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
A failed Nuheat system in a property in St Maughans Monmouthshire was simply replaced by Max4therm a ultra thin system lay on top. The total height was 15mm including the screed go to www.max4therm.co.uk for more info. | ||
| Vin_61
New Member Username: Vin_61 Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
hi, new to this forum but am already finding it very helpful. i am also interested in instaling ufh and have attended the shows ect listened to the slick sales teams telling us 'our system is the best' has anybody out there bought and self fitted a good quality resonably priced system? has anybody heard of wondafloor heating? i also want to link the ufh to a home automation system has anybody had experience of this? thanks. vin. | ||
| Leemick
Regular Contributor Username: Leemick Post Number: 69 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: N/A |
Hi Nellahc PLEASE TELL US MORE For information on Underfloor Heating visit www.leemick.co.uk Yes we are advertising | ||
| Cds
Silver Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 187 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Mike have a look at the Royalle website (www.royalle.co.uk) | ||
| Temp
Gold Level Contributor Username: Temp Post Number: 628 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
I believe that Heatmiser UFH thermostats can be networked together to a central control box and possibly to a PC. Not done that myself though. Vin - I can't find any reference to Wondafloor or Wonderfloor UFH heating on the web. The components for UFH are readily available so it's not hard for anyone to put together a company (small or otherwise) to install systems under whatever name they choose. | ||
| Cds
Silver Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 189 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
The company is Wundagroup web address www.wundagroup.com. Heatmiser do a web based control system www.heatmiser.co.uk but this only provides heating control. Try www.smartkontrols.co.uk for full home automation, there are plenty of others as well. | ||
| Leemick
Regular Contributor Username: Leemick Post Number: 70 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: N/A |
Cds..... Thanks (The Sunday times is a better place to advertise) UFH and Home automation is easy. The home Automation becomes the thermostats linked to PC or WEB or Touch Screen. and the relayed output from the home Automation becomes the Switched lives to the UFH Wiring control. It Becomes costly when there are lots of zones because each one requires its own digital output and all wiring needs to go from the thermostat (Normally part of the light switch) to the Home automation control centre and then back to the Manifold. The pumps and boiler switching are normally done in the convensional way via a wiring center The major cost is the Home Automation commissioning and setting up costs For information on Underfloor Heating visit www.leemick.co.uk Yes we are advertising | ||
| Cds
Silver Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 190 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Mick I have included Home Automation in a number of spec's at the clients request, to date no one has used it in conjunction with the heating a few have gone ahead with "mood" lighting. | ||
| Leemick
Regular Contributor Username: Leemick Post Number: 71 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: N/A |
We have found that in the past customers want home automation but get turned off by the price. We have also installed the Heatmiser system with touch screens and are just designing a house in sevenoaks that has 34 zones (Small house) that will use either the Devi reg radio system or the Heatmiser wired system. The devi system may suit better because the controller can handle more than 32 zones and each room controller act as a repeater to the master so distance and radio signals should not be a problem For information on Underfloor Heating visit www.leemick.co.uk Yes we are advertising | ||
| Kevroot
New Member Username: Kevroot Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2007 Rating: N/A |
I have had nothing but trouble with my nu-heat system for past 5 years worked fine when new 11 years ago, but then a sudden loss in presure meant 1 of the zones had sprung a leak in mid section under the concrete! I contacted nu-heat who just advised to block off that zone! great ah central heating for part of the house only!. Since then pipes have started to leak from the minifolds and I am constantly have cut the ends of the hose and reconnect! now I am having trouble trying to get the remaining zones to heat up any advise? | ||
| Temp
Gold Level Contributor Username: Temp Post Number: 1361 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
> advice? If you can afford the cost and headroom perhaps consider putting another UFH system on top downstairs and install rads upstairs. Seems there was some form of class action in the USA over rubber UFH pipe... http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/legal-services-litigation/5527949-1.html Try contacting other people to find out what they did. Theer are several in the thread above. Try sending them a PM. Not hard to find others on the web.. Bottom of here.. http://forum.self-build.co.uk/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=20&MessageID=21 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~armb/nuheat_underfloor_heating.html | ||
| Bayard
New Member Username: Bayard Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2009 Rating: N/A |
I installed a Kee system last year. The manual said nothing about putting inhibitor in the water. Is degradation of the pipes still a problem, or is it something that Kee/Underfloor Direct has now sorted? I wish I'd read this thread first as I would have left longer tails to the manifolds, just in case. | ||
| Temp
Gold Level Contributor Username: Temp Post Number: 1540 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
One would hope lessons were learnt. My system (another make) was installed two years ago. I plan to flush the system and renew the corrosion inhibitor roughly every two years. | ||
| Cds
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 412 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Temp Do you have radiators on your system? If you do I would not recommend draining and flushing every two years. Each time you refill the system you introduce more oxygen which will result in corrosion even with an inhibitor. If you are concerned with black oxide (you will only get this if you have radiators) then install a magnaclean which will remove it from the system. Of course if you do not have radiators then flush to your hearts content as you do not have large quantities of steel that will corrode! | ||
| Temp
Gold Level Contributor Username: Temp Post Number: 1550 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
No rads, UFH on both floors. Good point about introducing fresh oxygen though. It's not that good for UFH pipes either. | ||
| Cds
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 414 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Temp Its OK if you have kept away from rubber tube (see above) Pex and Butyl pipes are not effected. So long as you do not have ant ferrous components then flushing will not cause any problems. | ||
| Bayard
New Member Username: Bayard Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2009 Rating: N/A |
So what are the recommendations if you do hve the dreaded little red pipes? | ||
| Cds
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 420 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Bayard Sorry my experience with underfloor heating and other system plastic pipework is only with Pex and Butyl. You need to adhere to the manufactures instructions otherwise you will invalidate the warranty and when you have to claim you will not be able too. | ||
| Temp
Gold Level Contributor Username: Temp Post Number: 1563 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
If they advise that you put certain chemicals in it, keep the dated reciepts. | ||
| Bayard
New Member Username: Bayard Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2009 Rating: N/A |
So it's a case of "do you feel lucky, punk?" Either I put in inhibitor and possible prevent the problem, but invalidate the warranty (presumably also the warranty on the pump, manifolds, mixing valve, PHE etc) or I do nothing and get some new tubing if the old stuff fails, leaving me to rip the floors up to replace it all. I guess the best course of action is the second one until the warranty on everything but the tubes is expired, then add inhibitor, cos the warranty on the pipes is worthless given that the main expense is getting to them to replace them. | ||
| Gilesy
New Member Username: Gilesy Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2009 Rating: N/A |
I'm bidding on a 7/8 year bungalow with UH supplied by Invisible Heating Systems Ullapool. The information they have on the system is sketchy to say the least. Does anyone have any information on the Co? They are not UHMA memebers which causes me some concern and what sort of info is available on the PERT tubing that they use? gilesy | ||
| Cds
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 490 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Gilesy Invisible Heating has been around in the UFH industry for some time (10 years plus) and have a good reputation. The PE-RT (Polyethylene Raise Temperature) pipe is fine with UFH and is not subject to the type of failures seen with Rubber based products. Invisible Heat offers a 50 year guarantee on the pipework. Obviously it is not possible to comment of the actual system but I would not let the supplier of the UFH put you off buying this house. | ||
| Leemick
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Leemick Post Number: 91 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: N/A |
Please..... what concerns you about a company not being a UHMA Member (Its a Manufacturers association, Not many installers at all... Product is only as good as the guy that laid it) We have been using PE-RT pipe for the past 8 years without major problems For information on Underfloor Heating visit www.leemick.co.uk Yes we are advertising | ||
| Stephen_featherstone
Regular Contributor Username: Stephen_featherstone Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2008 Rating: N/A |
NuHeat continue not to support their historic problems - my main concern is that then now claim to be experts in things like heatpumps! The UHMA was set up to try to make everyone conform to a high standard both in equipment and quality of advice / installation. Why is NuHeat not a member? I rest my case. | ||
| Stephen_featherstone
Regular Contributor Username: Stephen_featherstone Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2008 Rating: N/A |
IHS from Ullapool have always tended to be a quality supplier - beware I have recently heard that the Company has just been bought out (not sure by who) | ||
| Splurgey
New Member Username: Splurgey Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2009 Rating: N/A |
I have the unfortunate 'disability' of having a Nu Heat underfloor heating system that has leaked, devasting our downstairs kitchen and dining room. After long dialogue with just about everyone, the technical director down, they won't do anything! No support at all. I get passed from department to department. Just a while ago I approached them for a Heat Pump and they said they could not supply one to me...because of their heating system is not compatible! Do they really know what they are doing? If if they do, BEWARE they won't support you if it goes wrong! | ||
| Leemick
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Leemick Post Number: 129 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: N/A |
Stephen...... We are not members of UHMA simply because i disagree with its policy. I support our installations some installed for over 10 years, and what has being a member of UHMA and selling Heat pumps got to do with each other ? I don't condone in any way what NuHeat are doing but please don't tar all non members with the same brush, some of us belive in what we supply and install to a higher standard than a lot of UHMA member's sub contractors For information on Underfloor Heating visit www.leemick.co.uk Yes we are advertising | ||
| Leif
Regular Contributor Username: Leif Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Yes, many good companies are not members of UHMA as they are not manufacturers. http://www.underfloorheatingsystems.co.uk | ||
| Leemick
Bronze Level Contributor Username: Leemick Post Number: 130 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: N/A |
Leif.. As your are fully aware there are only 2-3 true UFH Manufacturers (OEM's).. the others are more of a merchant supplier. I feel that the installers (True installers) should have their own Association so that the guys at the front end can have best practice passed between each other and not the big boys that dont deal with customers direct or dont install direct. Let the Manufacturers develop product and systems (Manufacturers association) and then let installers who talk to customers have an (installer association). This could still be under the same umbrella as UHMA OR UHIA or even just UNDERFLOOR HEATING ASSOCIATION For information on Underfloor Heating visit www.leemick.co.uk Yes we are advertising | ||
| Frankmartin
New Member Username: Frankmartin Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2009 Rating: N/A |
[url=http://www.warmyourfloor.com] underfloor heater [/url] You may experience a temperature rise in the floor of between 6 and 15 degrees, which may or may not meet your satisfaction. Insulation installed below the mats is essential to complete the installation. | ||
| Bob_walsh
New Member Username: Bob_walsh Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2009 Rating: |
Hello, [url=http://www.techstore.ie/Renewable-Energy/Underfloor-Heating.html]underfloor heating [url]Underfloor heating works by pumping controlled flows of warm water from a boiler, or other heat source, through plastic tubing embedded in the floor. Because the emitting area is large, the warmth provided is quite sufficient even on a cold winter day without the need for any extra heat source. This method is well suited to all normal floor types solid or timber. There is a wide freedom of choice of floor coverings. Thanks, Bob Walsh Greentech are specialists in a range of Underfloor heating services. | ||
| Girlybuild
New Member Username: Girlybuild Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2009 Rating: N/A |
As a female alone about to attempt my own self build and using UFH, this is scary stuff. Please may I contact Buildersmate privately as he gave specific instructions on overseeing the installation process and calculating the amounts of additives per system? As we`re only seeing the failures of UFH on this site, could anyone tell me if it really is a rubbish system or simply averagely proportional problems? | ||
| Temp
Gold Level Contributor Username: Temp Post Number: 2932 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
As I understand it the problems reported here relate to pipes installed a decade or more ago when some of the failure modes of UFH weren't fully understood. Some makes were effected more than others. These days I think all UFH pipe contains an oxygen barrier to prevent the problems that occured - but do check that the make you choose uses a "barrier pipe". It's generally recommended to get your UFH system designed rather than to allow a plumber to just buy and install. If you get the system designed by the manufacturer they will normally provide a manufacturers warranty. Is there mains gas where you are building? | ||
| Bidenuheat
New Member Username: Bidenuheat Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2009 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for suggesting a precaution regarding the barrier pipe which usually creates trouble..The nuheat floors at http://nuheatmats.com could be an added advantage once we check the UFH system | ||
| Cds
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 601 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Could this be Spam? Link points to a site in the USA and is for electric UFH. | ||
| Joiner
Gold Level Contributor Username: Joiner Post Number: 1193 Registered: 12-2008 Rating: N/A |
Quite a few US companies are posting spam on here lately. I suspect it's a blanket campaign hitting every forum that comes up on a google for 'building forums'! One of them had me creased up - it was for a company that did home renovation work in and around New York!! | ||
| Cds
Gold Level Contributor Username: Cds Post Number: 604 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Joiner I still think the BB could do with a monitor(s) to clear out spam etc. | ||
| Joiner
Gold Level Contributor Username: Joiner Post Number: 1194 Registered: 12-2008 Rating: N/A |
I agree and have thought that for a long time. Temp and I contribute to another forum which IS closely monitored, actively so, but it is moderated by the guys who set it up, all tradesmen, whereas this forum seems to operate more or less independently of any control - as witness the extremes demonstrated on those threads dominated by the plasterers a while back! That would have been stamped on in very short order on that other forum. Even if spam is reported it usually stays in view until it moves beyond the 3- or 7-day limit and can still be there when it moves into the archives. I'm not aware that any spam I've reported has actually been physically REMOVED. |
